Description:
Beverly Evans talks about her experiences in the LGBT Community in Oklahoma.
Transcript:
Julia: Hi my name is Julia McConnell. And today is June 26th, 2011. And I am here with Beverly Evans in Oklahoma City. And Beverly has agreed to sit down and talk to me today as part of the Oklahoma Unheard Voices, a lesbian oral history that we are doing in part of the Oklahoma Voices Collection at the Metropolitan Library. So Beverly, can you tell me how old you are and where you were born?
Beverly: I am 66, born in Guthrie, Oklahoma
J: Guthrie, Oklahoma? What did your parents do?
B: My dad owned a tire store; my mom was a homemaker. Guthrie was right out of American Graffiti.
J: Well, you know I haven’t seen American Graffiti.
B: You wouldn’t know what that means, do you? It was a pretty typical 1950s town, the draggy main, the cars, the…it was what we did, we, we were the town.
J: Yeah, like the sock-hops.
B: Yeah.
J: The drive-ins.
B: Yeah, drive-ins.
J: So, did you have brothers and sisters?
B: Only child.
J: Only child. And dad owned a tire store?
B: Uh-huh.
J: And mom was a homemaker?
B: Uh-huh.
J: Did you guys go to church?
B: Huh. My mom and I did.
J: Where did you go?
B: Methodist church.
J: Methodist church?
B: Uh-huh.
J: But dad wasn’t into church?
B: No, my dad grew up Baptist, and my mother would not go to the Baptist church at that point of her life, and so he stayed home, she went, she dropped me off for Sunday school, she wouldn’t go to church, but she wanted me to have a church experience.
J: Because this is what you did?
B: Right.
J: So it wasn’t a big deal in your family?
B: No, well me going was a big deal.
J: Uh-huh.
B: But, no, not really, not for them.
J: So you guys weren’t like a religious family?
B: As they got older, then they did end up at the Baptist church.
J: Oh yeah, ok. So, so did you grow up whole time in Guthrie like from birth to…
B: They lived in the same house from the time I was 5 until they died.
J: Ok, oh so your parents lived in that house.
B: Um-hum
J: Wow that must have been, how long was that like?
B: Let’s see, we probably moved in that house1949, 1950, and they died in 93 and 99,
J: Wow
B: Almost, almost 50 years.
J: Almost 50 years. Is it in like the heart of Guthrie, or was at?
B: No, we lived on the west side of the town; we lived across the tracks,
J: Um-hum
B: Up on the hill, we lived where you can look across the town, across the river, and see the town, when we built the house, it kind of little bit rural, and I am not sure why they landed there, but that was just where we ended up, and it was, it worked for me, it was good.
J: Yeah,
B: We had a little school and you know, I had, it was safe, it was easy, it was, you know,
J: Yeah, so you had a pretty happy childhood,
B: I did
J: Yeah
B: In a observable ways, very much, walked to school, had my best friends, you know, read all the time, played, rode my bike wherever I wanted to go, played, you know, when the stream down the street, you know, I had, I had, I had a great time as a kid.
J: Yeah
B: There were undercurrents of a lot of graving in the family, of course, I have been the only child and having my cousins moved away, and so I was the only one to absorbing of all the grief in the family, but that was all of the subterranean…
J: Right. So like the grief you parents couldn’t have more children, miscarriage…
B: No, it was my mother’s family, my grandmother lived there, and she lived down the street, my mother’s older brother died at age 17,
J: Oh
B: And so, there was a lot of unresolved grief, probably one of my other, my uncle, the other child of family moved away, he had wanted nothing to do with it. And so, I was, it was very unresolved. Nobody ever talked about it.
J: Right
B: He was, kind of, God like in the family, and, so it was just the unspoken sadness. You know, I absorb that. But, you know, who knows that kind of thing when you were 8 or 9.
J: Right, kids are sensitive to it but they aren’t aware
B: Right
J: Aware of it…
B: Right. But overall, yes I was a, you know, smart kid, made A’s all the time, just I was kind of little, I just made straight A’s all the time.
J: Yeah, so you really liked school?
B: I guess I did, I think unconscious would be the good word to describe me.
J: Unconscious
B: Um-hum
J: Like, what do you mean by that?
B: I didn’t have clue about anything who I was or what I did, I had no idea what I really like or how I felt about the things, I think I just sort of cruised for the school, through life, did what I was expected. I don’t think I am unusual,
J: Right
B: In the 50’s, you know, in my observation about the 50’s, looking back was that the men who served in WW2 which my dad did and my mother traveled with him to the east coast, that was the high point of their life. They came back, they had to re-adjust their expectations and their….They had been away, they seeing things they had ever imagined, they had ever seen. They had to start to live the things routine life’s again. I think it was very hard for them, and I think they shut down, and they raised family that was shut down.
J: Um-hum,
B: So, I think we had a very shut down little world.
J: Yeah. I mean do you think, like a lot of suppressed emotion, lot of
B: Oh, I don’t think we are the only family
J: Yeah, so do you think that is pretty typical of Guthrie or just maybe America?
B: I can’t speak for anything else, I think was for my observation of small town Oklahoma I am guessing it was pretty true.
J: Um-hum
B: I think we all were just numbed out.
J: Yeah, and we were all, we were the women, did the women you know, were all the moms, wives and stuff
B: There are a few women who worked, of just couple of three women worked, one was divorced if I remembered correctly. There was just not that all common for women to work. Most women were mothers and, you know out of my graduating class, there were some smart girls in my class, really smart girls, and they all became teachers, every one of them. Which I even now I am thinking, wow, I am not saying that was not important job, but I don’t think anybody thought of anything else.
J: Right, there wasn’t an option.
B: I graduated at 1963.
J: Right, and you are probably like growing up at Guthrie, had you ever heard about any gay people or knew any gay people in Guthrie in 50th?
B: Well, we had an organist at the church.
J: The organist at church was a gay?
B: Um-hum, a boy, a guy; a PE teacher, but I did not realize at that time, a woman.
J: That’s it? But did the organist, do you know about him when you were kid, or did you look back?
B: We knew he is different,
J: So like mom and dad probably knew and the kids knew that he was different.
B: Well my mom liked him a lot because she played piano, and they kind of sometimes play together you know, or they talked about playing the piano together. There were boys in my class who were sissies.
J: Um-hum
B: We knew all along they are different. Um, and I know they were treated badly. I was always drawn to those boys, I always like them better.
J: What do you think you like about those guys.
B: They were smarter, they were more fun, they were more, they were more fun!
J: Yeah,
B: They were just more fun. You know, I mean think about boys in Guthrie in 1959, they were all you know just boys.
J: Right
B: You know, into football, and cars. They were boring to the girls. You know, I did not realize of cause, at that time I was gay, I did not realize for much long long time,
J: Right
B: But um, my friends the boys I was very interested were gay.
J: so were they like your group of friends, like in your high school or middle school and you hung out with those boys?
B: Yeah,
J: So what did you do, you graduated from Guthrie high,
B: I did.
J: And you did you go to school after that or did you
B: I went to OU.
J: Ok
B: But I got involved very early with my high school boyfriend,
J: Um-hum
B: And um, so I got married really young, I got married at 18.
J: Ok, so right after high school?
B: Yeah, I got married at February after I graduated.
J: After you graduated from,
B: High school
J: High school, so you graduated in December. Or February, after, ok. So married at 18, did you guys go to OU together or?
B: He was two years older, he was already at OU, so I married him and, then we lived in Norman. And then I got pregnant and had baby right after he graduated. So I stay out of school for a little while and went back to school and graduated.
J: Um-hum, what did you study?
B: I studied English at first and then I changed over to history, got my undergraduate degree was in social studies.
J: Ok, so how many children did you have?
B: I had one the one son and then later adopted a son.
J: Ok, so, and you guys stayed in Oklahoma after you both graduated?
B: No, he was in military, it was 1966. And we went to Fort Bliss, Texas, and it was during the buildup of the Vietnam War and he did not go to Vietnam he went to Korea.
J: Ok
B: And so I came back came to Guthrie with my baby and went back to school at Edmond,
J: At UCO, or what was
B: It was Central State,
J: What did you study in UCO?
B: That’s when I got my, finished my undergraduate degree in social studies.
J: In social study. Cool. So, so how do you like being home alone while your husband was in Korea?
B: I was not home alone; I was, lived in my parents
J: Ok
B: I was undifferentiated child, I was very immature. I lived at home, I ran around with my girlfriends and my mother pretty much took care my son, it was a immature time, it was all pretty awful, I mean I had to go back home was awful, how I handled it was awful, it was just awful.
J: How old would you have been then?
B: I would have been 19 or 20; I was a kid still, Um-hum
J: Yeah
B: I married too young, obviously.
J: So what do you mean by undifferentiated child?
B: I was undifferentiated meaning I hadn’t grow up yet, I hadn’t separated myself out. My mother would let me live at home and I was not able to stand up to her and say no I need my own place, and I could have my own place, I should have had my own place, and I was not be able to do that. Because I wasn’t, um I hadn’t established my own self yet.
J: Ok, ok, so, so your husband comes home from Korea, I mean, does he make career out of the military?
B: No,
J: Ok.
B: No, we had, it was interesting time. He comes back, he is a blossoming alcoholic, and, we go to Chicago, and this is 68 then, we ended in Chicago during the convention.
J: Yeah, the democratic convention?
B: Yeah, we kind landed places when things were happening,
J: Wow
B: And, so he’s stationed there, and I, while he has gone, I become a liberal. I hadn’t thought much about that kind of things until then, but I had enough time on my own to really start to reading and thinking about things and become liberal. And so, he’s having to kind of be a support person, in case they needed to take troops down and I’m just wild about what is going on down there, and on his off times he is drinking, so it’s, you know I am watching my life really start to become apart.
J: Right
B: Um-hum, then let see, we, he gets out and we come back.
J: So was he stationed in Chicago?
B: Um-hum,
J: Ok
B: Yeah, there was a naval air station right cross street from us, and then, but he was at a, he was in air defense, so, it was missile unit there. So I don’t know what they thought we gonna do, shoot, I don’t know why, I don’t know, I never really quite, he could never talk about what he did.
J: Right, he has to be prepared so if if Vietnam escalated or if they needed him that he he needed be there, so he was involved the war and you were involved in peace.
B: In the peace
J: Yeah, right
B: Yes, I am involved in the peace and he is involved in the war he gets me went back to the military again. We went to Germany this was little bit later on, I was really aggressive at that point, I wear peace symbol earring around and you know and we played to the Beetles all the time. And by the time we were head to the doors.
J: Um-hum. So you went to the Germany fairly soon after in the early 70th or late 60th
B: Let’s see, that would have been probably 1970 or 71; I only stay few months and then you know he he left too, he left army after that, because of his alcoholism had really peaked out.
J: Got serious
B: Yeah
J: So did you guys split up.
B: Yeah
J: So then you were single mom.
B: Yeah
J: And, then you had a son
B: Yeah
J: What did you do?
B: I had graduated from college at that point, and I became social worker for the, what was the welfare department at that point.
J: Did you come back to Oklahoma?
B: Um-hum. I came back to Oklahoma; I had that job before I went to Germany. I went over to Germany as kind of last ditch effort. I worked for child welfare, and worked with unwed mothers who were placing their children babies for adoption and I went back there, and so I um I began be much more involved in the peace movement and go, and I’d go march, and you know.
J: So, like how did you find out about the peace movement, I mean like were you reading stuff or was like the people you were talking to that you got involved in to peace movement or like
B: It was pretty much by then I started to working for workfare department in 69 and then, there was another woman there who was pretty radica, so she would tell me every things she knew, but it was in the papers, and that was at the point where, there was a lot going on. There were marches at OU, there were things happening, a lot, there were a lot going on, so it wasn’t hard to find out what was happening.
J: Yeah.
B: It was there.
J: It was, it could just like trip over.
B: Yeah,
J: You couldn’t avoid it. So, like what kind of marches, where you guys go march.
B: The first one was the garbage man.
J: Is that with Clara Luper’s? No that was
B: I don’t know
J: That was earlier, that was 60
B: That was earlier. I don’t remember who all that was, so I, it was kind like downtown, and there were, I just went, I don’t know who was there, I just kind went and walked around with bunch of other people. Then, and there was one, I think it was October 15th and I was right after a third job and I just told I was go to Norman then go to this job, I go to this thing I just had
gotten a job, I don’t know why they let me do it. I went to Norman it was I think it was like maroatorium or something, I don’t remember exactly, but I went to Norman I guess maybe some other people I knew were there, I don’t remember really, I just remember been adamant that I was going and they let me go. It was just the times.
J: Yeah, so the garbage man would be like um the union, the garbage.
B: They didn’t have a union. But I think they did strike and I think they got, they did get paid more, or something. That was radicalizing time.
J: Right, so do you feel like you became radicalized in late 60th, 68 or 69?
B: Yeah, absolutely.
J: And like was the most the peace movement or did you become interested in other kinds of social issues.
B: At that point, I think I think I don’t remember it didn’t it didn’t take long for me to become interested in women’s movement. Although it hadn’t been articulated but I remember it when I was still in OU I remember Betty Freidan’s book, and I remember thinking it was stupid. But I remember then where I was sitting when I first heard about it. so
J: Where were you?
B: I was sitting in a car waiting for my husband to get of the work at Papa John’s pizza. And I heard them talked about it on the radio and I thought that’s stupid.
J: What do you think was stupid about it? Like what
B: I thought, that is what I still thought I was Republican, the reason I thought that way is because my husband was Republican and I thought I married him because he was different from anybody else in Guthrie, they, his family was just different, so they thought they were Republicans and so I thought like they did for very brief moment of time, and I thought why shouldn’t they be so, why should they complain? It’s how they supposed to do. You know, why, why wouldn’t they, why would they complain. So obviously it made impact on me that would’ve been like 64, so probably by, I probably by 70 or 71, I was starting to think differently about that. But I wouldn’t say I am feminist until 72 or 73.
J: What do you think the changes was like, or what inspired the change?
B: I think it was in the air.
J: Yeah
B: Yeah, the consciousness raising group has started,
J: Um-hum, did you join any of those consciousness raising groups?
B: Yeah, we had one. We started one, soon as I heard about one.
J: So explain explain what concerns raising groups is.
B: Well, concerns raising groups was a group of women who got together and talked about their lives, so that they could reflect on ways that they were suppress their own sense of identity them self.
J: Ok, so like who what kind of people would be in your consciousness group, I mean you don’t have to name, names
B: I know I know.
J: Would be like other people like your age and your class or.
B: Yeah, in our group there was, it’s just funny. Because the first group I got with I remember there was one woman whose husband worked with me, I remembered her, I don’t remember who else was in that group, so we kind all got together, it was after I married 2nd time, he and I would kind go around and talk, this was this was oh gosh, lot of things happened there, um, ok, 1972, lot happened in 1972, I met Peggy, Peggy Dern, Peggy was, maybe Peggy was part of a Peggy Dern she was really, she was way there, we were all volunteers at a place called Paseo center which was a drug, what we volunteer to the drug center.
J: Was it related to the Paseo District on western?
B: Yeah. And I met lot of people there. And some of them are still friends of mine. And um, Peggy she started a newspaper, I don’t remember when it was started exactly, it was call Oklahoma new women, and then she, and there were some other women, older women, Martha Hayes was one, she still alive; Kay Teal, they started the Oklahoma women’s political caucus.
J: Ok
B: So we all end together. I was married to mike and we would speak about, his wife has been killed in an accident, car accident, so he was, he had a son, so he had responsibility to his child. and he was in a position where he realized that he had responsibility he never had before because he had no wife, and so we would kind of speak about this and um that’s so we then the consciousness raising groups, we kind evolved out of that I guess. He and I got married at 73 so that was probably 74 before the con consciousness raise group started at our house. Um. So Peggy started a newspaper, and um she was really one of the pioneers.
J: What is the newspaper like report? What was in the newspaper?
B: It was um, it was editorializing, part of it was editorializing, part of it was um news, that she would pick up a story
J: Like this rally happened
B: Or she will pick up stories where there was discrimination
J: Ok.
B: Lots of that. She was friend with Frosty Troy, she somehow she and Forsty know each other. I am not sure what she was doing then, of cause she was working, but, she was doing it on the side first. And gradually more and more women you know, would start to read it, got more and more involved, she has to change the name, because there was a magazine that was called New Women so she changed it to Sister Advocae and somewhere in there, Peggy became, she went into lesbian relationship. So then that opened the door to all these lesbians so they became to involve in sister advocate. And somewhere in there I left welfare department I got my masters in social work there, so this was like 76 or something. And and I have to say, we we talked a good game, but I don’t think us were none of us were good, I don’t think any of us were very conscious,
J: So like, so you guys talked about, you know like feminist ideas about been independent from the men or and you talked about but you wouldn’t be able to live then?
B: Not that well, I mean because we were we were, really, that was the infancy, about the feminist movement,
J: Sure
B: And we were just, it was like we were like teenagers in a way, we were the we were adult lesson of the infant of the feminist movement, so we talked a lot, we were loud, we we were aggressive, oh we started do equal rights amendment. That’s when was, that’s what was going, so there are lot about ERA, marched in the capital, we always go to capital for something, there were lot of women who running of office, That what it was . we we we do alot of camping, we worked hard we did our best we really were commented but I don’t think we were you know, we weren’t internalized yet, you know.
J: So give me an example like not been internalized, you guys would say women should have equal right for men, but then your life you.
B: Oh well but we just, we still get involved with relationship were not quite…
J: Equal
B: Yeah, I mean women, lot of women who were involved in the equal right amendment, working in feminist movement at that time, were struggling a lot in the relation with men, you know that kind of thing.
J: Right
B: And I think it may be why they were attracted to the feminist movement to begin with because they felt be victimize by the relationships.
J: Maybe they kind of held on to some ideas about you know unconsciously what woman should do or what the relationship should be like.
B: Absolutely. I think it takes long time to be a, a whole person, you know it take a lot of work to be a whole person
J: Right,
B: And so but we did, we did our best, we tried, our consciously rise group honestly we drank lot of wine and ate lot of chess, I am not sure what we really did lot of conscious rising, I know there are lot of CR groups were much better than we were, but we were just kind of
J: Right but maybe it was much about the community.
B: Yes it was a lot about community, and we, I think we meant a lot to each other over the years and then you know life moved on and we moved into different directions and things were different and life changed
J: Right, so you were really involved in ERA movement
B: Yeah, yeah.
J: And doing legislate, they tried to get legislature to, legislator to sign on
B: Yes, we didn’t do it; we were unable to do that here in Oklahoma,
J: Yeah
B: And somewhere along the way, I got my masters degree I was working in child safe center, I worked there for 3 years as social worker. And then I quit to stay at home with my kids, because you know we had these two sons and their lives you know were complicated. And then I did that for a while and I got to start to have a practice and my private practice was called women’s counseling services and I decided to specialize in the problems of women, so I became feminist counselor then. And there was another feminism consular in town at the same time and her name is Kay Kilgore, and she had Woman to Woman, and so
J: That was the name of her practice? Woman to Woman
B: Um-hum
J: OK
B: So she moved in, Peggy, we had this office space, Peggy was there, she was doing writing and editing, I was there with my consoling services. Candace Blalock was there, she was lawyer, she specialized in working with women’s issues. And Kay came over so we kind have this little.
J: Collective
B: Collective yeah, it was cool,
J: Yeah
B: It was very cool, we really loved it, it was neat. So then things evolved, and I ended up getting a divorce
J: Um-hum,
B: And then Kay and I, that is why I became lesbian, Kay and I got together
J: Um-hum. So like you don’t have to answer this if this is too personal or anything, but do you think you had idea you might be attracted to woman and then you met Kay or was like you met Kay and through been attracted to her you discovered you had, like was, the the orientation come first, or find love been attracted to that person come first.
B: Well looking back, and i worked with a lot of people over the years, a lot of women come out at middle 30th or early 40th and a lot of time they will say this looking back I realized that you know I was attracted to woman over the years, but there are a lot of denial about that, of cause in 1950 Guthrie I was not gonna recognized it no matter what happened, so I think I was attracted to woman all along, my relationship with men weren’t successful, I just wasn’t, I was more comfortable with gay boys. And my relationship with women, although they weren’t sexualized, were very intense, and they were, that who I really want to spend time with my women friends, and so it makes a lots of sense looking back I was never the girl, although I had this dramatic you know relationships with guys, they were not real, they more like drama, you know breaking up, making up and all that.
J: Like you play a role
B: Yeah, they weren’t real. So on one level I don’t think anybody really surprised, if they can think it over, but of cause people were very surprised, because that was the last thing anybody would have expected from somebody like me, who been married, have children and all that. So it was a big deal, it was I think it probably never would have had happened if it hadn’t been the time as it was, if it have not been this big genergized period of time with all this going on, all these changes happening, life was just going so fast
J: Like late 70th and early 80th women’s movement really gaining some speed
B: Yeah and things were just happening and changes were happening so fast and it’s like the bottom just fell out and so well all right so this is happening now, you know ok we are going to do this and actually once that happened after it dust settle which it took a while, life really did become calm in a way it hadn’t before. And I feel like both of us, I feel like we really did do good work.
J: You and Kay
B: Yeah, that we did help a lot of women, once we got our own life sorted out, that we were able to be helpful, and we were able to figure out how to how to help women figure out what they needed. Once we figured it for ourselves which it took a while, we would be able to do for other women.
J: So you helped a lot of women through practice because she was therapist
B: She was psychologist and I was social worker
J: Did you guys work together professionally or you have office together.
B: We office together.
J: Do you think like Peggy came out like kind give you permission, do you think it helped to having a person ahead from you
B: Maybe, I don’t know, I thought it was creepy.
J: oh was it at that time, when you first heard of that. You were like …
B: I was like, oh ok, Peggy got so creepy, I don’t know what you’re doing
J: Yeah, so you think
B: I don’t think so, I, no, I didn’t, you know, I am consciousness is unconscious, denial is denial, you know, I really didn’t see it coming.
J: So you are kind, I mean what were your feeling, like when you fell for Kay and you’re recognizing these feelings, I mean what were you feeling during that time.
B: You know it was such a complicated time. And there were other people involved in it, I really don’t think I feel I can go in to it without implicating anyone.
J: Ok, that is fair.
B: Sure
J: So so you know you involved the feminist movement and you still involved in the peace movement even though [unintelligible] maybe politics
B: Yeah, I think we were way pass that you know I mean it was 1981,
J: Yeah, there were something
B: Nixon was gone, you know that wasn’t part of the deal any more.
J: an issue
B: The feminist movement has was really not part of the issue. I think we were at that point really looking at more self actualization,
J: Um-hum
B:Self-awareness
J: You were really involved stuff like that
B: I think it more like the assertiveness that was big, assertiveness, 80 early 80 was been a lot of the psychology of women things began to come out, Carol Gilligan you know the in the different voices, the idea that women have different perspective on justice than men do. Those kinds of things began to happen.
J: Ok.
B: So that kind of direction we were going.
J: So your kind of philosophy in your professional life start to kind of merge with like doing women center consulting and social work.
B: Yeah
J: Um-hum, so was Kay, was Kay, was she kind of in a similar position as you were, or was she already a lesbian?
B: She was already in a re- she had been a- she had been in a- a lesbian relationship.
J: Okay, so did you guys feel like, um, or maybe you, actually I should ask you, cause you are not, a, you are a person by yourself, so did you like at this you know during this time did you kinda feel like you, you know like the coming out process today, through through this one, you know is that women go out and, and, you know, find others lesbians, I mean did you feel like that need for that kind of community at all, or, or was you kinda had that through Kay. So kinda go kinda, figure out what this means, or there were really maybe wasn’t the same kind of the same thing?
B: Well, I had my community already…
J:.Yeah
B: And my community was, um, mostly straight people….
J: Right.
B:.And they were all so accepting of it that I didn’t feel the need to have a gay community, and then Kay had, she had friends, um, and we had our lives, you know, we just had this life and our lives involved kids, and, um parents, and work, and, um, we had a lot going on.
J: Yes, so you didn’t really have time for this, like, um, this giant shift in identity, or like, it was just like now let’s move on the next….
B: This was what it was for many, and so, it was sort of surprising that it, that they, eh, I thought that, when my came out, i would have all this permission to really have this freedom, I thought it would be this big step towards freedom, because I thought i was leaving the heterosexual world, and that um, wow, I was gonna be able to go in, be anyone I wanted now, that was not the way it was at all….
J: Yeah.
B: Because 1980s lesbians were kinda stereotyped, you know, like everybody went to the bar all the time, there was a lot of drag shows still going on, and, it’s like, it wasn’t my scene at all.
J: Yeah, Right.
B: And, I didn’t fit it….
J: Yeah.
B:And uh, we did some of that but it wasn’t me and so I just kinda, well, I just took, I got permission from myself to just be who I was and not worry about all that stuff.
J: So you, kinda had to like, give up that label a little bit.
B: A little bit, yeah, in fact I didn’t think of myself particularly as a lesbian for a long time.
J: Um-hum
B: I don’t ever really, that was not the first thing I said about myself.
J: Sure, sure. So, um, but do you you kinda said though that once you and Kay kinda the like the the dust cleared they you were able to do a lot of good work?
B: Um-hum.
J: What...
B: I feel like we did.
J: Yeah, why did would you think that is? What changed that you were able to….[Intelligible]
B: I think we stopped working so hard, but I can’t speak for her, I, I’m just, I just, I don’t know what it was like for her before we got together and if it changed for her but for me I feel like I just stopped worrying a lot about what was expected from me and I could you know I felt like we had a life that was congruent and that I could work, I could live, I could, it just, life just seemed a lot easier.
J: Um-hum, like in the inside outside match better?
B: A lot better!
J: Yeah.
B: It did. And then we could just go on and create whatever we created, life was pretty creative, we did a lot of creative kind of things, we were both into art and, you know, and we did with the kids and, you know,.
J: Yeah!, so sort of like once you got over that like, that bump you know your life were allowed to speed up, and kinda take off, a little bit
B: Yeah.
J: Um, and it was a big deal with your kids, and your parents, did they handle it okay.
B: Yeah. No? I mean, I think I have great admiration to my kids, I think it was hard for them, particularly the younger one, I think he had an awful time with it, and, bless his little heart, I think he’s done well, and my older one was already kinda of an edgy kid so I don’t think it was hard for him, and, um, and he was older, anyway he was 14 and the younger was 11, so, um, so they were amazing given the difficulties of it, The, um, my parents, they just, I thought they were gonna die, they thought they were gonna die,
J: Yeah
B: But as time went on they just, they lived with it, they figured it out, they just, figured it out and they accepted her and she became a part of the family and that was just that. There wasn’t any getting around it, she was there and they had to live with it, and of course you know she became very much a part of the family because we were together for 18 years.
J: Yeah
B: And, you know, Guthrie didn’t know what to do, there was no framework for them.
J: Right, were you guys live within Guthrie,
B: No, but you know, we go there-
J : But you’d go there sometimes, it’s not that far away from Oklahoma city
B: No, and then word got up there very fast, it did not take long for it to get there….
J: Small town. Yeah, um, I thought I have question, but I forgot, um so how old were you when you and Kay got together?
B: 36.
J: 36, so you were pretty established as an adult, I mean you had kids, and you’ve been married twice, so maybe, you know maybe, it didn’t, you don’t incorporate it in such a huge part of your identity
B: Exactly
J: You’ve already established.
B: Right, I think it’s very different when you're 18,
J: Oh yeah.
B: At the very different experience, I don't know how people who at 18, 19, and 20 do it. You know, I think it, well I think it might be easier now but if I were if I realized when I was 18, 19, or 20, I think it would’ve been so hard. It was so hard enough to be 18, 19, and 20 anyways, you know but to have to face that in those days, you know my friends who were gay and they did have tormented times, things happen for them that were not good and they didn’t survive it, you know.
J: Like literally didn’t survive it?
B: One suicided, and one died aids young….
J: Um-hum, so you and Kay were together for 18 years, and did you guys stay in Oklahoma the whole time?
B: Yep.
J: Um, did you ever think about leaving, did you.
B: Yeah, we did, just like everybody in the 8’s0. We were gonna leave just like everybody else.
J: Well was it Reagan during the late 80s or was it….
B: Oh it was during the, you know, the, there was a terrible recession during the 80s, and during the Penn Square Bank thing, and there was awful, people were struggling so and there were jokes a little last person in Oklahoma please shut up and turned off the lights, we thought about moving, we had friends that moved to Santa Fe, and we really toyed with the idea, but, we just stay then. I bought a small building over on the 45th street and we had our office there, and we had other people, who officed, who friends officed there too, and we just stayed and it all worked out, and you know, things change and pretty soon its better. We traveled, we traveled a lot, went to lots of different places, and you know a lot happens in 18 years, your kids grow up, they graduate, they get married, my older son got married, he had kids, we became grandparents and, both my parents died while we were together, so we went through lot together, and then during our 18th year we really had just gone through so much, and then Peggy, Peggy died.
J: Your friend Peggy that you shared your office with that you knew all those years?
B: Yeah she had a baby in there somewhere, and I became the person if anything were to happen to her, and um she had an aneurysm and she died, and that girl, um, was 16, Erin, was 16, and um, I became her legal guardian overnight…
J: Wow.
B: At the same time that oh you know Kay’s family was here, Kay’s mom had a stroke, I mean there was just a lot of stuff, we just had a, like a lot of things, my dad had just died, things just kept getting, hitting, hitting, hitting, and it was just too much and our relationship couldn’t hold up to that much stress, so we did break up, which was, uh, it was it was sad for everybody...
J: Yeah. That would have to be tough. So but wow you became a mom overnight after you have already been
B: It’s hard.
J: Yeah. To a 16 year old girl, that's like, uh, in the real world it wouldn’t be that funny.
B: It was not funny. It wasn’t funny.
J: They could make a movie about it but it wouldn’t be that funny. Well that must be a really tough time for you.
B: Yeah, it was, and er so then it was like, rebuilding, again…..
J: Yeah. There always different, you know, lots of different hurdles that come. When you know, you think you got it figured out.
B: I know. You do, it’s amazing, because it was such a great, it was like, my dad had die, I finally got the house cleaned out, man, we had an estate sale; Peggy died the next week, I was like, how did this happened, how did this happen? So you know, it just do it. You go on, life goes on. So, moved on, of course like you do, we did ok, Erin and I did ok, we did fine that first year. Then I, over time. I began to re-juvinate like you do, And then late I met someone, and I am new relationship with. And it is a whole new life, whole new world.
J: um, so do you feel like you, ok, two two questions, I will say the first one, what do you think what do you think how did you get it through that whole really different period involve those people passing away and the relationship falling apart, I mean so do you think you just had to, you had to push it through
B: well
J: and you don’t have to answer it
B: I had…I need Kleenex
J: Take your time
B: The reason it is so sad is because Kay died
J: Oh, I am sorry.
B: She died three months ago, so it is kind raw
J: Tender
B: So that make different, I have a lot strong spiritual believes. And I had I was at spiritual direction training at that time, I had some lovely wonderful people who were with me in addition of my friends, they were just incredible and I just I was blessed, I have good strong friends, and I had good strong you know in my heart you know, there was, I was always had this believe, this
is, this is an image I had then, I am not going to tell you, that will make me cry. I just had this image of myself along the side of the road and there was nobody coming. And then I started to painting one day, I mean this desert is dark totally darkness, and I am going wow that are lot of desolation. I must be feeling very bad if that is what I am seeing. I started to painting. I did not realized what I was painting, I painted this cabin and there were light on it cabin, I went my god there is light. And just a second. I went oh there is a light, it’s light in the cabin, so I am good. So I just, it always been kind like interaction between me and my visual world, I am a painter, and I have a lot, I meditated for years, years and years, so it’s always, it’s always interaction going on. So that is what it is, and it kept me going during the very different time.
J: Yeah, you can have the foundation when you needed
B: Yeah
J: I’ll start to be hard on you
B: Yeah, ok
J: Um-hum, so you like, so you know you and Kay split up and you know, and you don’t, like so when you split up did you can, do you think you really identify with, with like the label lesbian, or would it been possible for you to fall in love with guys again. I mean did you kind like embrace that, you know there are a lot of women who when they come out you know how to come out and experience mid life you know
B: Right
J: They kind, some do and identify the whole lesbian thing and other people said I following love with that person, you know, it’s not really
B: Yeah, I understand the question. I thought I might, it was a thought, but no not really. I am just so glad I did not have to try that again, I am so glad I fell in love with Donna that we have the life we have, and I did not even have to try with the idea
J: Um-hum [unintellegable]
B: Yeah, I, it just not, it's just, I don't want to have wasted my energy that way
J: Yeah, just try wasted energy and trying run off wrong tree. Yeah
B: To try to live my life, try to figure out what they thinking and feeling. It's lot of work
J: Do you thing it is easier to figure out what the women thinking other.
B: I don't know to defending woman, but I just been, the relationship I have been in with people who were able to articulate and who’s been, I have been fortunate to have relationship with women who would be able to be really partners. We would be able to formulate goals together, we would be able to share a lot of things to really be in our lives together. We are able to contribute in a lot of ways together. And I just I just been so lucky to have these women and I can really feel like were my partners you know
J: So do you feel that the key of success relationship is that partnership, emotional,
B:Yes absolutely you can actually talk to one another and you can really share what you feeling, you have ways to work through things when it go wrong. And you can talk about the hard things. The both of people are strong enough to deal with things are complicated. And then I am not saying men cannot do that, but I think lots of guys have very hard time understanding articulating the complicated emotional world. At least my I have very complicated emotional world, I will drive man crazy. Because I, it is too much, so fortunate that I am with women who willing go the extra miles to listen to my you know visual, spiritual, you know whatever,
J: Right. It’s great. Um, so do you think there anything we haven't talked about? You want to talk about?
B: I think that um, I think that for me, this maybe repetitive I don't know. But I think I do think have being in a lesbian relationship has given me the freedom I wanted that I was looking for when I came out, freedom to really create a life that’s mine that i can carve out this very specific life of my own. That i can say I lived my life not the life has been prescribed by our culture or whatever.
J: Right, you have the freedom from roles, and you have freedom from meet expectations.
B: Yeah.
J: I thought it is interesting how you said, like when you came out you are going to like everything is going to be different, what do you want is the freedom from yourself rather than like freedom, you know like you expect you are somebody different
B: Um-hum, yeah that is an interesting way to say it. I remember a client that I had, and a lesbian woman, and she was she was having a lot of problem with physical health, she said, she couldn't play basketball anymore, she said I don't know what I am going to do, I can't play basket ball, what I am going to do. I said what do you mean; I don't like to go to lake. You know for lot of Lesbians women, there are parameters that are very small, it is a small world, for a lot of lesbian they created, there is a tiny little world to live in and I have so hoped you know that I can help whatever way I could just say, but not just lesbians but for all the woman I worked with. I looked outside the box here you can create any kind world you want you know and there is, it's hard, it's scary When you stepped outside what expected of you, what you expected yourself, you going to be scared because you don't know what is going to look like. Like I picked up and move to Bloomington, don't know what it will look like to live there and move back here, and it's scary I never done it before. I don't know anybody who kind lives in two places just because they want to. So you have to take responsibility for yourself,
J: Talk about what you mean about about lesbian women live in kind small small world, do you mean socially or like maybe the role they contracted for themselves
B: Well, of cause my experience comes from the women who come for therapy
J: Sure
B: So they are one got problems
J: Right
B: But what I have seen is I don't want to generalize
J: That is OK
B: That there just attendance perhaps, to maybe spend too much time meet at the bar or at lake or at the
J: Like get to insuler
B: Yeah exactly, that is a good point
J: So like if the woman can play basketball that means she has to be lake lesbian should basketball lesbian she could be like that lesbian.
B: Yeah, I know there are whole a group women who don't live that way, but there are whole lot of them do, and so, anyway, I would hope that there will be freedom and step away from the culture, the predominate culture.
J: Right, well it's like feminism in early 80th the right way to be feminist.
B: Right
J: Do you think the insularity is because of its Oklahoma and there is maybe because of the lack tolerance in some communities toward lesbians or do you think that is natural be with your own kind insularity.
B: I don't know. I would not have way to know that, I would guess it probably that would be true. But I would not have any way to know. You know in Bloomington where I live now for I understand there are very large gay community there but you never know it because people just they are integrated, it's completed integration .So you just sometime you see couple you know farmer's market or downtown,
it just, so i am guessing perhaps it is partial, because of it being avoided here in Oklahoma we will get eyes on some degree. or at least somebody has strong desire to do something different, drawn to different interests or different kind of life then then they just land in the mix
J: Right, so um, so do you see like a, do you see, where do you see going here in Oklahoma, I mean, do you see getting more integrated or do you do have your prospective from your life
B: I just have my prospective
J: Yeah
B: You know my life is here in this room I would see people, they go back out, live their lives, I don't really have idea, I wasn't in any group, I wasn't involve with Cimarron or any other groups, I didn't go to the bar, didn't go out, visit with people, so I don’t really have any idea what is going on in the bigger community
J: It's ok, the first people don’t have to know [unintelligible] but you did have your share with your practice
B: Um-hum. I got meet a lot of different people. And you know I got you know a good picture of different whole different wide range of folks doing a lot different kind of stuffs. I got to see a lot of bright creative women involve a lot of cool things, so I feel lots of respect for the work lot of people done.
J: Yeah. Well thank you so much for talking to me today, I really appreciated
B: Thank you for asking me questions
J: Well thanks again.