Description:
Geraldine Keels-Coulter talks about life in Northeast Oklahoma City.
Transcript:
Interviewee: Geraldine Keels-Coulter - GC
Interviewers: Tracy Floreani - TF
Gina Sofola - GS
Rachel Jackson - RJ
TF: No we won't take your picture, it's alright. Just gonna record you, and we are recording. So, for the record would you tell us your full name and spell it for us.
GC: Yes. I don't like Geraldine but Imma say Geraldine [laughter]. G-e-r-a-l-d-i-n-e, “LaBelle” L-a-B-e-l-l-e, “Keels” K-e-e-l-s, dash, “Coulter” C-o-u-l-t-e-r.
TF: I'm glad we asked you to spell it. That's a lot of name. Now you don't have to answer this question if you don't want to, but do you mind answering when you were born.
GC: November 7th, 1924.
TF: And where were you born?
GC: In Kansas City, KS.
TF: And what brought you to OKC?
GC: My parents.
TF: And do you remember what year that was?
GC: It was after I was born in between the time I was two years old, because I remember when I was two years old.
GS: And that's to Oklahoma, not Oklahoma City.
TF: Ok where in Oklahoma?
GC: Tulsa, OK. Sand Springs.
TF: And then when did you all come to OKC?
GC: I came after high school after Frederick High School. I went to Langston University first and my dad wanted everybody to be teachers and I personally didn't want to be one but I didn't dare tell him that. I always wanted to be a nurse. So I left, stayed there for a while and the government offered courses and things for you to work for the government so I took them and went to Tinker, and it wasn’t called Tinker at that time it was called OACD.
TF: O-A-C-D? How did you get to work? Do you remember?
GC: Caught a bus. Off of 4th and Durlane. Every morning about four something in the morning.
TF: Do you remember how long it took to get to work on the bus?
GC: It wasn’t a city bus. It was a bus that they had employed to pick up people who worked for the government and take them to Tinker. What was the last part of the question?
TF: How long did it take to get to work on the bus?
GC: Just as long as it would be to pick up different people. I’d say approximately maybe 45 minutes or an hour.
TF: Do you remember your first address when you moved to Oklahoma City? Or what about it was?
GC: I remember I was staying with my aunt out in Sandtown. I don't remember the number.
TF: That's alright, what do you remember about Sandtown?
GC: It being a ducky little town, but everybody was really friendly there. I stayed there for a while and then I moved on 8th Street by OK Market, I don’t recall the address. I stayed there until I moved from there and moved up on North Philips between NE 4th and NE 5th on Phillips and I stayed there for...absolutely surely from another place I stayed about three months but it wasn't a very nice place so I had to move from there because my parents told me to hang around.
TF: Were you living by yourself at that point?
GC: Yes. At that time, women and men couldn't stay in the same house if they were single. They had...oh golly that's good thanks for that question. When I first came here people were acting decent. What my parents called decent and what I call decent. People over on the NE side, most of them lived in two story houses and they rented out rooms. And this house, if you lived there, there were nothing but women. The other house nothing but men. So, and that was on North Phillips.
TF: So that was like a boarding house?
GC: Exactly.
TF:But you had your own room or did you share a room?
GC: I had my own room. I never shared a room, not even at the University.
TF: What do you remember about living in that house? Do you remember any details?
GC: Yes. Everybody seemed to be Christians and everybody, the lady who owned the house cooked for us. I didn't want home cooking, I wanted junk [laughter]. But she did cook for God just like if she were my mom.
TF: Were there places that you would go out to eat when you didn't eat at home?
GC: At work. At Tinker. There was a place on, thanks for that question, on the NE side. Everybody on NE 4th, well all over the East side from the Blacks, lived on, from the South side of A street all the way over to Walnut Grove. So, everybody mostly ate on the east side because, I don’t even remember I can’t even count, people made their homes, the two story houses, into restaurants. They used their kitchen and breakfast room and enlarged it and it was a restaurant. And there were many I don’t even know how to start counting them. We had, ok I'll wait for the next question.
All: No, no, no keep going!
GC: You didn’t have to go downtown hardly for anything. NE 4th there were restaurants, two big theaters, 3 funeral homes, 5 or 6 cleaners, laundromats, mistographeries it was black and white on Lottie with business. We had restaurants on there, we had I can't remember. See I get nervous.
TF: Don’t worry about it! We’ll help you remember.
GC: It was kinda like a five and dime store, that is what we called them. They had one of those on there on 8th.
GS: Was it TG&Y?
GC: TG&Y! TG&Y there.
GS: Is that on 23rd?
GC: On North 23rd.
GS: Ok, but you were focused in on 4th street and laudy?
GC: Yeah at that time we had to go from A south street. We could go anywhere we wanted to in town but we lived on the South Side of A street. And they had everything almost on the East side. We had amusement parks, two of them. I said 3 but it wasn't three, one moved 63rd street.
GS: Aunt Gerry, tell a little bit on what 4th looked like.
GC: It was kept clean, everybody kept their yards mowed. We had and that's another thing, most blacks worked for, it changed, those were just about the only people working for the city as far as keeping streets clean. They washed the streets with the thing on the truck. And everybody kept their yards clean.
GS: So at one time you lived on 4th street, right?
GC: That was after Tinker. I got really sick and the government, the war was, this was all during WWII. And the war was over. I was working at Tinker. Do you remember when, last night I remembered just give me a minute...Roosevelt died? I was working at Tinker and the war was about over. Everything got black and that's when I was living on 4th street. And then I moved around. I stayed on there, that was after Phillips I stayed on there for a good while.
TF: Is this the housing development you were talking about?
GS: Yeah Mama was, we were asking Mama earlier about where on 4th street and she was trying to remember cause she said the first time she came to visit you then your grandmother was sick and had come to OKC to go to the doctor and that's how she came to visit you at that house on 4th where it was a small addition, minister owned...
GC: Ok no. My mother didn’t come, she is remembering part of it, it was my dad, who got sick and came.
GS: No, no your grandmother.
GC: Oh my grandmother?
GS: Your grandmother.
GC: Oh yes, my grandmother stayed with me yes, I took care of her. That was kind of a development. It wasn't an apartment house, it was individual houses, yes I did stay there and took care of my grandmother.
TF: Yeah what do you remember about that community? How close together were the houses?
GC: They were all in one big lot I’d say about from that street up to where Simons house is. They turned the big house into a church and there were 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 other houses. And I didn’t even have a toilet in my house. We had to use an outdoor toilet, I was the only one that had to use one.
TF: Was everybody there a member of that church or was that just a coincidence.
GC: No I was the only one that was a member of that church.
TF: Do you remember the name of the church? Or what kind of church it was?
GC: Yes, it was a church of living god. Bishop Pizor(?) was the pastor and I can’t remember the name of the church right now. I’m a little nervous.
GS: Mom said that's where you met cousin Edna.
GC: Yes.
GS: So we didn't know we were cousins. She is the one who always finds our relatives. She finds them and they find her.
GC: Yes, and we have many, many, many of them.
[laughter]
TF: Do you remember when you lived in that neighborhood? Did people sit out and visit on their porches in the evenings, did people go for walks?
GC: Yes people went wherever you wanted to go, nobody ever bothered you. If you were a woman you might get whistled at and that was the end of it. You might run into a dog somewhere and if he got his way he might bite ya [laughter]. Everything, it wasn’t like it is now for sure. People sit out on the front porch. My children played with other children and that was the development you know of different things. And he also had a lot of apartments on 4th street. It was a large place and it was a young man and he came over and brought me the things I got sitting around to eat yesterday. They played with my daughter at that time. The children got along, everybody got along.
GS: So at that time who was born? I’m just trying to get a timestamp.
GC: My children? Deesper(?). I can tell you what year it was if that's what you're asking?
GS: Yes.
GC: Ok Deesper was born in 1951. I moved, I was there about six or seven months before he was born.
TF: So what was it like raising kids in that neighborhood? What kinds of things were there for children?
GC: Great!
TF: Were there playgrounds? Parks?
GC: No not right around us they played on this long court. And they just kinda played together out in this yard and everything. Now there were, 4th street had a park. But we didn't have a car. My husband was working almost day and night and we didn’t have a car. So I didn’t have a car I couldn't even drive. Now we weren't far from the park but I just never walked and carried the kids. It kept me in church.
TF: And which church, you went to the church right there?
GC: That church.
TF: Did you always stay at that church even after you left that neighborhood?
GC: No no.
TF: Do you remember some of the other churches you went to?
GC: Greater New Zion Baptist Church, a little higgy church kind of children when we moved from there on Jordan. What Kate was talking about, Between 18-19 the children, it was a Baptist church the man was having church in his house and the children went there. And of course I went wherever they went. And then after they went to college and everything, well then they moved to bigger churches and so did I and that's when I joined Greater New Zion, was there many a moon.
GS: So you were telling me about the streetcars.
GC: Yeah we had streetcars. Everybody is so excited about streetcars, we had streetcars. The home office was on Exchange, it ran down 8th street turned around, I don't know where over here it turned around, and went right back the tracks are still there on the bridge. Right back down to town it stopped running about 12 o'clock at night. We had buses. And then the streetcars slowed down running until I think they quit running about, I’d estimate about, 7 o'clock. And then they just, we had what they call [laughter], the people who ran Oklahoma City a couple of them, three, at that time, they got rid of the streetcars and slowed the buses down till, first the buses were running all night and they slowed them down to midnight and then they slowed them down to 6 o clock.
TF: That doesn’t help working people does it.
GC: No the working people had to get there whatever way they can.
TF: So you were talking about all those businesses on 4th street.
GC: Yes.
TF: What were some of your favorites do you remember? Some of your favorite places?
GC: We called them drug stores at that time pharmacists we had 1,2,3 I didn't visit down on N 2nd street because it was too busy for me so I hung out on NE 4th street and I hung out in the drug store most the time cause we had malt machines in there and we had a theater right across the street. Occasionally because I never cared to think about movies but I’d go over there and they would have this eating place, we had several a lot of eating places but I only went in two.
TF: Do you remember them?
GC: I remember them, Bob’s Cafe was one of them and the other one was I can't remember the name.
TF: Do you remember some of the good food they made there?
GC: Oh yes.
TF: What did you love there?
GC: I liked everything [laughter]. It was home cooked food.
TF: Yeah ok. Like meat and three. Where they have like meat and potatoes and vegetables kinda thing.
GC: And Soups and sweets and everything. I'll let you ask the questions and maybe I’ll...
GS: Well we want you to elaborate you can talk and take it wherever you want to go.
GC: Well you know I talk a lot. I used to sit in a room and if you didn’t say anything to me I didn’t say anything to you [laughter]. But after I became a nurse it opened me up because that was my calling from God.
TF: Which hospital, did you work at a hospital or a doctors office?
GC: I worked at St. Anthony's Hospital.
TF: How long? Do you remember what year?
GC: 30 some years.
TF: What year did you start there?
GC: I worked there, well Let me give you this, I retired when I was 78 years old, the December before the Oklahoma City bombing. And I worked there 30 some years.
TF: And how did you get to work from your home?
GC: Oh I drove.
TF: Oh you had a car by then.
GC: Oh yeah I had a car before that. My husband bought me, the first car be bought me was a little orange and white Ford [laughter] and then after that I bought my own car so he was paying all the bills and everything so I bought my own car.
TF: So are there other places in that neighborhood that stick in your memory?
GC: Now which neighborhood are you talking about?
TF: Im talking about off 4th street or 8th street. The places you lived you know in the first maybe 20 years that you lived here.
GC: It was just great. People were friendly, people did things for each other they were just like family. And we had just... Ask that question so I can answer.
GS: Well was it like, I mean I've heard you say it was a booming place. But coming from Sand Springs or maybe coming you had come from Sand Springs and things like that so you were saying how it was just a booming place.
GC: It was a booming place, people had work. Nobody was hardly out of work, all over the city. I can name the places we had. Of course Western Electric came in years ago and it changed to something else. Tinker, Douglass, there was a glass factory where they made pottery. It was just and everything was downtown, they've got an underground thing downtown [mumbling]. Everything was downtown, the only shopping center we had was called Ready Shopping Center, it was way out SW.
RJ: So Aunt Gerry, it sounds like based on what you're saying that segregation was not really, didn’t seem as obvious maybe.
GC: No. It was obvious. The obvious thing we lived South side of 8th street. I'm glad you asked that question since we’re talking about segregation. After I moved off of 4th street and moved on Jordan. It was a Black lady who moved on the, they finally moved, we could move one of the doctors moved on the north side of 8th street, this lady moved on 9th street she and her husband if I remember correctly that was the street and the people in the neighborhood got together, got the sheriff and put all their things, now they were buying the house I understand, that's my understanding, out on the street.
GS: Now that was on 9th street?
GC: On 9th Street. I think, I believe it was either on 9th, I think it was 9th street.
RJ: So she maybe, was she maybe one of the first persons to go across?
GC: Absolutely. As far as I know she was the first person. I don't know if she had moved up from out of town or what. Because I didn't know the lady. But she and her husband and I believe they had some children, just threw them all outdoors. So after that the wheels started turning.
TF: So the way you talk about it it sounds like it was like its own small town, before desegregation.
GC: People I'll tell you what when she asked that question it was good. I went downtown, this was a personal experience for me. I go downtown one day we were in Crest, my oldest daughter was with me and we were just looking around there were just 2 places you could go in and eat downtown, one was, what was the name of that, no that wasn’t Crest because you could go into Crest and eat it had a counter, and there was another place down there you could go in and eat the place its still in business out on SE 29th, I can't think of the name of it. It's just about before you get to that mall on the N side of the street. Little place.
GS: And black people could go in there?
GC: Could go in there and eat.
GS: And this was in 1950?
GC: I didn’t pay attention to the year. It was long before we broke down segregation.
GS: It was before Ms. Lupper did the sit-ins at Katz drugstore.
GC: Yes. But you could still eat in those places. But I'd go in there looking around and I've noticed this man talking to me. Cause in Tulsa and Sand Springs it wasn't that prejudice. It was prejudice but not to the point it was in OKC.
TF: Really?
GC: That's right. And we couldn't go to the zoo on Thursday evenings and Sundays. Cause I asked when I worked at Tinker, let's go to the zoo. They said you can't go to the zoo. We could go to the zoo anytime we wanted to in Tulsa. And so I never went to the zoo until I had all my children and they were able to go to the zoo as we broke down segregation. Now ask me another question.
TF: Do you remember which schools your kids went to?
GC: Yes. They went to Page first(?) and just for a short time we moved from there and moved on Jordan.
GS: Now where was Page so that we can distinguish it from where it ended up. Where was Page at that time.
GC: I think, wait a minute, was it Page or Dunbar. Where was Dunbar?
GS: Dunbar is on 7th.
GC: Thats where they went.
TF: They went to Dunbar.
GC: They went to Dunbar and then the VA. Simon had to miss because of her age, she had a November. And then, she didn't even finish her first year there, kindergarten, and that's when we moved to Jordan. Then they went to the one in the front of...call some name right over there close to where I used to live.
TF: Was that 19th and Jordan?
GC: 18th. The one, the school the next street over past a church.
GS: They never went to the old Douglass, the historic Douglass?
GC: No no.
GS: Ok. They always went to the Douglass on..they went to JFK I remember they went to JFK. Elementary I don't know because I wasn't here and I wasn't born.
RJ: There was Truman.
GS: Truman.
GC: Truman! That's it Truman.
TF: Just keep naming presidents right.
[laughter]
GC: Truman. That's where they went.
GS: Velma lived over there on Euclid by Truman.
GC: She lived on Euclid. We was living on Jordan and they went to Truman. And then they left Truman and then they went over there behind where OU Hospital is. But it wasn't developed like it is now. People living in schools over there. Did you go to that same school?
GS: So that was Moon, she's too young.
RJ: Moon?
GS: That probably was the old I don't remember what it was back then but it eventually became Moon.
GC: That's another I need to tell you all. When I finished coming there there were two black schools. One was...
GS: Old Douglass.
GC: Douglass and Wheatly. Wheatly was on Reno.
TF: West or East?
GC: East, everything I'm talking about now is on NE. And something happened soon after I was here so we only had the one, that was Douglas.
TF: Was Wheatly a High School also?
GC: Yeah High School.
TF: And so were your kids still in school when they desegregated the schools or were they done with school at that point.
GC: Oh no, they were still at school.
TF: So did they have to change?
GC: I’m one of the ones who helped desegregate.
GC: I’m Clara Luper's cousin.
TF: Talk about that. Did you help with the sit ins?
GC: [laughter] Ok I'm almost ashamed to say this. Clara told me and another person to stay home and take care of the, my daughter Sandra who owns this house was 5 years old, my oldest son, he was young I can't remember, but he wasn’t very old, Clara had been sitting in and walking, she told me and another, the guy that married one of the popular woman they talk about. Her name starts with a K.
GS: You mean Ralph Ellison?
GC: No the name starts with a K, I'm talking about this woman I’m trying to think of his daddy’s name...
GS: Who’s name? Who’s daddy?
TF: The name starts with a K.
GC: This lady, he's the one that went in and talked to Trump, he’s black. Talked to Trump and white and black guys mad at him cause he did. He married to you know...she's younger.
RJ: He went to talk to Trump?
GC: Yeah this black guy...
GS: Recently?
GC: Yeah about a few months ago.
GS: And whose age is he?
GC: He is married. That was his daddy that she told me he and I stay home.
TF: Oh ok.
GC: Because we had too much temper.
TF: Ohhhhh who would that be? His name starts with a K…
GC: No the woman he is married to a whole group of them. They always, they real popular.
TF: Oh, Are you talking about the Kardashians?
[laughter]
GC: That's who I'm talking about.
RJ: We got there!
GC: Well he's married to one of them.
TF: Oh ok, yeah.
RJ: Kanye West?
GC: His granddaddy is the one that Clara told the two of us to stay home.
TF: Oh you trouble makers.
GC: Oh we weren’t trouble makers.
RJ: Kanye West’s grandaddy grew up here?
GC: Yeah!
RJ: I did not know that.
GC: Kanye grew up here.
RJ: Get Kanye West down here.
GC: He’s came to some of my grandkids.
TF: Wow. So the two were supposed to stay back. But did you?
GC: Oh Yeah.
TF: I don't know if I believe you [laughter]. So you were helping the cause by staying home.
GC: Yeah because of my temper. The first person that spit on me that's why she told me to stay home and his grand daddy. And we would do the paperwork and stuff. And do the calling.
TF: So you were helping from here. That's great. I would be angry too if someone spit on me.
GC: I'll get over it.
GC: Yeah Gerry used to have a temper I remember that.
TF: Used to?
GC: I still got it. But God took care of that until lately [laughter]. So much, but I won't talk about that.
TF: Feisty can be good. So the schools were desegregated and that must've felt pretty good.
GC: We made a mistake though.
TF: What happened?
GC: I've said this to black and white. We made one big mistake. We should have allowed them to stay wherever they wanted to and go to school wherever they wanted to instead of crossing them over demanding they cross over. I'm talking about black and white.
GS: The forced busing.
GC: The forced busing. And let me tell you the reason why. Since we on it. There was already a lot of segregation here, a lot of hatred probably on both sides. I'm saying that I don't know that but I'm saying that. When they crossed over forcing, everybody was angrier. They also crossed the teachers over. When they did that there were haters everywhere. The blacks weren’t treated right over there maybe the whites weren’t treated right over here. The white teachers were mad because they had to come over here and teach. At that time they don't know anything about each race they don't know God made us all the same way the only thing different. Cut that skin back, same difference. Our hair is a little different. That's God made us all like he wanted us. We didn’t know anything about, we did my family did, but there were many people that didn’t know about other races. They thought all kinds of stuff they been taught. So they were very angry. So the kids weren’t treated right so what happened, a lot of the black kids dropped out of school. They couldn't go to their parents, some of them and talk to the parents about what was going on. Cause maybe the parents were young people out having to work, husbands had gone somewhere if they ever had one. So the kids didn't really have anybody to talk to about the problem. So some of the kids didn’t get educations like they should. And hatred grew that much more for a while.
TF: Do you remember which schools your kids got bused to?
GC: They didn't, my kids didn’t get bused.
GS: They didn’t get bused. They were already grown.
TF: They were out of school?
GC: No They weren't out of school. No lordy, no they weren't out of school.
GS: Busing started when I was in the sixth grade. Sandra and Linda were, they were in college by the time I was in the sixth grade. Linda is 16 years older than me and that makes Sandra 14 years older.
TF: So they got to stay at their schools.
GS: Yeah. They graduated from Douglass.
GC: They graduated from Douglass because I didn't move them.
TF: So they had a good education.
GC: Yeah. Many of the other people got it but a lot of them didn't. No I didn't move them because I went to the Board so my kids stayed at Douglass.
TF: Were there other things you want to make sure we touch on?
RJ: What about the removal. That your mom mentioned? Jail? Cherokees?
GS: Oh. Mom mentioned when she was talking about how we got to Oklahoma, I think somebody asked her how we got to Oklahoma and she said granddaddy was born here but Big Mama was born in Van Buren, AK and she was talking about her mother..
GC: Oh ok, how we got to Oklahoma period.
TF: As a family.
GC: How both sides gots to Oklahoma?
GS: And I think you said Trail of Tears or something...
GC: Ok let me tell that. My grandmother on my mother's side came on the Trail of Tears. From, let me get in accurate, from a southern state where the Trail of Tears started.
TF: Did they come with the Cherokee?
GC: Now names, let me say this. Ever since I been on this earth, if I wasn't around you long, I forget your name. So if I'm forgetting a little bit thats why.
RJ: Were they in Georgia? Or Alabama?
GC: I think it was Georgia. But her mother was Irish. She came straight from Ireland. My grandmother had not a drop of black blood in her. She's Irish and Indian.
GS: And her mother was Irish?
GC: Was Irish.
GS: They came with Cherokeee.
GC: They came down, I used to know the year I can't remember, and my mom went to Arkansas. And then my grandmother came into Oklahoma and her sister, that's how they met my grandfather on my mother's side. He was an ex-slave when he was a boy slavery was over. As far back as my grandfather can count he was 116 when he died.
RJ: Was he a slave here?
GC: No,no.
GS: No South Carolina or the Carolinas I think is what I remember. The story I remember grandma telling me. And then he escaped, Big Mama told me he escaped slavery because he killed a man.
GC: Exactly.
TF: So he was looking to be in a safe space in this way.
GS: He had to leave or they would've killed him.
TF: Right.
GC: And on my, what else do you need to know about my family?
GS: We were just trying to find how you connect to..
GC: On my dad's side his people came from Canada. They were Canadian Chinese. And they came from Canada.
TF: And they ended up in OK?
GC: They went to Texas first I think and then they came back to Oklahoma. And in Oklahoma...
GS: They came to Eufaula. And that's where my grandfather was born, in Eufaula.
TF: That was a long journey back then.
GC: And they moved from there to Kansas and that's where I was born. And then back to OK. I guess I must've been a baby because I can remember two years old. Trying to get my brothers to be quiet I'm two years old and my mother is yelling keep that baby quiet and I'm jumping on the bed putting a pillow over his head to keep him quiet [laughter] and my mom had to look through the window, I was always obedient. I did, I remember just like it was yesterday. And I was real short and mother made me a skirt out of man's pocket handkerchief at that time they had big pocket handkerchiefs. I can remember my grandfather really well on that side.
TF: So when you think back on the neighborhood back in the day and you think about what places are gone now, which ones do you most wish were still here?
GC: The East side for one. Because they came and renovated and tore down all the things that they shouldn't have torn down. Where OU is now, where it extended off, there were black living all around over there they had big two story houses. They just messed up the East side period. And up there where Bricktown is, part of that was the NE 2nd.
TF: So that's the area you think has changed the most?
GC: No. The whole East side.
TF: The whole east side.
GC: From, they tried to put 23rd, tried to leave it but it's never been the same.
TF: Are there things that have stayed the same throughout the years?
GS: What about Geronimos?
GC: The fairground was over here too. Everything seemed to be mostly on the East side at that time. So that will give you an idea of what the East side looked like. Where Douglass is, that was all fairground. We had two amusement parks, Spring Lake and...
TF: Was it Black Hawk?
GC: Black Hawk. On I-35 and NE 23rd. It's where it was right there in the corner. And then they left and turned it into apartment houses. It's nothing like it used to be, nothing.
TF: What about, are there things that aren't part of the actual physical space that have remained the same, do you think the community is the same or no?
GC: No I don't think anything is that same, I really don't.
TF: Are there some good things from the change? Have you seen anything recent that you like?
GC: Well, they increased the Zoo although I haven't been there. The amusement park is large out there. Douglass school is built really nice. I can agree with that. They improved this part because there was a Milk Dairy right there where Botanical Gardens is. They moved downtown they had, and that's church and everything. I can't think of anything that I would have wanted to change except Douglass moved to a better place.
GS: Do you remember, let me ask you one thing, what about JFK when John F. Kennedy, when the school was built I've heard people talk about this and these are things that I just didn’t know anything about but that Robert Kennedy came and dedicated that school do you remember that?
GC: I remember somebody saying that but I don’t actually know because I didn't go. I'm talking about stuff that I really know about. Yes they say he came and I met him on another occasion.
TF: Really. Here in town? Do you remember where that was?
GC: On NE 23rd.
TF: What was the occasion?
GC: He was in that big car. And he was sitting in the car, when he came from the airport he came down the black side of town. Because he came through Tinker Field that's where his plane landed. And he came down NE 23rd and of course I went to the car.
RJ: I wonder if it was on the same trip that he made here.
GS: It might have been, because several young people, I mean they are not young...
GC: No he came here, that was during another occasion he came. I can't remember which one because I was living on Jordan then.
TF: Are there other things that we didn't ask you about that we should have asked you about?
GC: No ask me, ask me.
TF: I think we asked...do you have other questions you want to ask?
GC: Ask me, just ask me anything you wanna ask me and I’ll see if I know somebody.
RJ: What was it like to go to school at Langston?
GC: It was a small, it's much different now. The school has extended a lot, they built the apartments around there. School of religion was out there, everything was renovated down that campus but it wasn't anything like it is now. It has improved tremendously.
GS: Do you remember who the President was back then, of Langton.
GC: Yeah I'm looking at him just like I'm looking at you. He was heavy set, had a round face. Older man, I can't think of his name. You know I've always, I've not ever been good with peoples names.
TF: Do you remember what year you graduated?
GC: I didn't graduate there. I left there, remember I said I took a course. I thought after my dad, nobody worked for him, he worked at all of the schools. You know he said you're going to college, you're going to be a teacher. And my mind wasn't on that I coulda stayed there and graduated and then went to Tinker. I wanted to be a nurse and those days your parents you respected them and I did to this day. I appreciate everything my parents did. And I still today respect the people, whether their old or not, but especially the older people cause I got a lot of teaching from them since I been in Oklahoma City, older people. I left and went to Tinker, remember what I said because I wanted to be a nurse. And the first thing, I need to tell you this, this is my own thing. After I got Tinker WWII was still going on, I went and got ready to go to the Navy, was it Navy? What was the waves, that was Navy right?
GS: Mh hm.
GC: I was going to the Navy.
GS: Oh really?
GC: That's right. And the older people out there Tinker talked me out of it. The day I was going to take my test and enlist they talked me out of it, I got permission to leave Tinker and go do it, I was working a half a day and I was...you know now after that I started taking off all days because I was going to do something but I loved to work. And my dad never said work, so I did, and I took off just a half a day. And if I hadn’t taken off that half a day I’d been gone to the Navy. But I'm glad I didnt I was angry for a long time about it.
GS: Hmm you really wanted to go to the Navy huh, that's interesting.
GC: I was angry because I didn't get, I listened to those older women. But today, a long time ago, I'm glad I did, because I didn't know anything about getting raped and all that stuff.
TF: Is that what they said to try to convince you not to go.
GC: Yeah they said a lot of bad things happen to women and all that kind of stuff. You know you gotta, these older women talking to me.
RJ: Where did you finish your nursing degree?
GC: I finished my nursing degree, first I was an LPN at St. Anthony. I finished first there and then I went to Oscar Rose. And then I, see I was going to go out there to school you talking about. And then I used to go to school all the time I went (unintelligible) finished there. My dad said you do everything you can, before I went to Langston University my dad finally, he never wanted us to work when we were growing up, sent me to Welling School in Tulsa, I finished that. I was supposed to go to, it's not Colorado, it's that place right next to it, the shipyard is. But I didn't want to leave my parents so I didn't go there. Cause I wanted to go to college but I said I wasn't going to be no teacher. But then I got that and changed my mind and I said this was your chance to go make some money and I sent my parents money. And then I ended up finally being a nurse after I had all my kids. And that was, oh lord that was the greatest feeling I could ever have, except the holy spirit involving me [laughter]. Until this day I didn’t want to quit, I didn’t want to stop working at 70 years old.
TF: So you liked working at the hospital better than working at Tinker.
GC: I love taking care of people. I love taking care of people. I love seeing them get better. I worked all over that hospital. Except I didn’t work, I was placed in the Emergency Room when I was a student, but I never wanted to stay in the Emergency Room, because I was afraid one of my, I love family, and I was afraid some of them might come in.
TF: That would be rough.
GC: And I started to go to the operating room and I said no I better not go there. But I worked everywhere else in the hospital.
TF: Do you have any more places you can remember?
GC: Well name something else. I got interested in me now. [laughter]
GS: I can't really think about anything cause I don't know.
GC: Well just ask me something else.
RJ: Did you ever go watch live music?
GC: Yeah because when I was in High School I played the Clarinet and Violin.
GS: Did you ever go down to Deep Deuce because I know you said you wouldn't hang out there but.
GC: Yes I did! Yes! Yes! I went down there one time, what's that black lady.
GS: Zelia Breaux? Do you know anything about Ms. Breaux or how, cause she was still around when you came here.
GC: Yes. But this other black lady who used to come here every year.
RJ: A musician?
GS: Marian Anderson?
RJ: Singer?
GS: Mary McLloyd? That might have been before you came.
GC: No, no. That must've been who...this lady came back every year even after segregation was done and deep deuce was going to nothing and gave a concert, they did a concert down there every year.
RJ: Anita Arnold?
GS: No no.
TF: She was a performer? Was it a performer you are trying to think of?
GC: No they had performers down there, mostly used people from the East side. But anyway I went down there one time it had grown up in tall weeds. Your, I don’t know if Kate was with us, no Kate wasn’t with us, Simon was with us, and I had to weed through the weeds. I never went back. I said they coulda cut the weeds down, so I never went back.
RJ: But you did go when you were younger?
GC: One time.
RJ: What did you do that one time?
GC: Nothing, I just went to watch the parade they had down there and listen to the music.
TF: Did you go to any dances?
GC: Municipal auditorium, one time. It was too many people, and I love to dance, but it was to many people.
TF: You don't like crowds like that?
GC: It was too many, yeah I like crowds, but it was too many people in there you couldn't dance.
GS: In one location ok. Where was the Municipal Auditorium?
GC: Right where it is now.
GS: Where?
RJ: Oklahoma City. The downtown one.
GS: What's it called. You mean the Civic Center? Ohhhh ok.
GC: You didn't know about that?
GS: No. I mean I'm thinking segregation, you wouldn't have been able to go down there.
GC: That's the only place we could go. That's where we had our dances.
GS: Oh. But they weren't mixed dances they were…
RJ: All black.
GS: All black, they were all black dances because you could do it down there but..
GC: Yeah, yeah.
TF: That's why everybody went because it was that one time. [laughter]
GC: Yeah everybody when. Then they got where they go more than once, if the peoples names are calling me then I remember it, there was a black man that would always get count basie...
TF: The blue devils? No that was earlier.
GS: No she's saying the person who would bring them.
TF: Oh ok.
GS: Was it Abraham Ross?
GC: No, no. I'm sorry to say Abraham Ross was an embarrassment to us. I'm sorry to say that. He was a good, he was the only one we had, there was another person I can't remember his name but Abraham Ross, I'll tell you what, Imma tell you what I was embarrassed about and i imagine none of you knew about it, your not old enough, I don't think you even old enough either [to TF].
TF: I'm not even old enough to drink.
GC: Honey they drinking now from the cradle [laughter]. This world is in a mess. Christ is on his way back here honey, worlds in a mess. When he mentioned that, I used to listen to him all the time, until he mentioned this, I was so embarrassed I turned it off and never listened to him anymore, there was a, he got on there talking about this young black woman having her period, on the, she was on the elevator, she must've been kind of, a lot of people almost flood themselves for their first, and he talked about it on the news. And that got me, that got me. I never listened to him another time.
GS: Well I think that's…
TF: We thank you for your stories.
GC: Well ask me something else, ask me something else [laugter]. I want to help my niece and a whole bunch of yall.
TF: Did you go to any of the public libraries here in town?
GC: Oh yeah I used to go.
TF: Which one?
GC: Down here a little bit down here, but I’ve worked most of the time trying to get the kids through school and everything.
GS: Where was Uncle Dee’s..
GC: Garage?
GS: Garage.
GC: Right over here where McCay’s Funeral Home is. That street up first street on that side, right straight down that street.
GS: Oh so around 36th then.
GC: Mh hm or straight down. Well it started it didn’t start there.
GS: Ok yeah I knew it was McCays back then, where was Roth back then?
GC: Ok that's another thing, they were all on 4th street in front of the park. Thanks for asking that, McCay was on 4th street down there by the park, Roths was around the corner...
GS: Was it on Lottie?
GC: No that wasn't Laudy that was, High.
GS: Ok so right near Douglass.
GC: No honey.
GS: It was right where the old Douglass is because Douglass is on 6th and High.
GC: Ok, this was on 4th and High.
GS: Ok.
GC: We talking about 4th street. And you know where the park?
GS: Right in front of Washington Park.
GC: It was on the East side, around the corner on the West side. McCay was right there around the corner, there was a funeral home, two funeral homes down 2nd street, you would have to call names for me to remember that.
GS: What about other types of grocery stores or…
GC: Oh we had many, many grocery stores.
TF: Yeah which one was your favorite?
GC: I went to all of them, Sal's grocery store.
GS: Spell, what is…
GC: Sal.
GS: Sal? S-A-L?
GC: Yeah. But that wasn't his name, that was the name of the grocery store. His last name was Bunn, B-U-N-N. His first name was Sal and he named the grocery store that. It was on 5th and Jordan. Right up the street was “Jones Boys” it was on Bath and 5th. Up on Cellar street was Son’s grocery store, it was smaller grocery store. Up the street, 6th street and Jordan, and right a block up that was Sunny’s grocery store. It was a big, that was my favorite.
RJ: Sunny was different than Son’s?
GS: Son’s was S-O-E...
GC: A black, a black man owned Sal’s and Son’s.
RJ: Was in S-O-N, Son’s?
GC: Uh Huh just a Son, and then Sunny’s was, he was, I don't know what he was, what nationality he was. Jones Boys was white then another Jones Boy which they were brothers. OK Market was on 8th and..
GS: OK Market...
GC: It's still there right?
GS: No. But I just remember that name, I don't remember that.
GC: Uh huh that was one of my favorites. And then…
RJ: It was at 8th and what?
GC: Wait I’m trying to think of what that street is coming through there. You know where Fairview Baptist Church is?
GS: Mh Hm.
GC: Well if you leave Fairview and go West the first church you get to and then you come up, well that was OK Market.
GS: Ok, so that was 8th street.
GC: I know the 8th street, but the side street.
GS: Ok. I know what your talking about, I know, I don't know the name of...
GC: You leave Fairview and come..
GS: Is it Bath? That's Bath too, cause Bath on straight on over there I bet it was, I think that's Bath or something like that.
RJ: And then where was Sunny’s?
GC: Sunny’s was on 6th street and one block from Jordan. Whatever street that was.
RJ: And where was Son’s?
GC: Son’s was on 5th and Jordan.
GS: So OK Market would have been a block from Martin Luther King. That's what you’re talking about.
GC: No.
GS: A block west from Martin Luther King.
GC: No, Fairview is what, two blocks.
GS: Two blocks.
GC: Well it would've been three blocks.
GS: Ok. So like from Martin Luther King, it's on 8ths and three blocks from Martin Luther King.
RJ: So three blocks from?
GS: My memory is bad but whatever, three blocks.
RJ: Three blocks west?
GS: Yes.
GC: And you asked about Dee’s Garage. It started on Nebraska, and then they moved on 7th and Martin Luther King. Then his next move was, I just told you, from McCay and that's where he was when he died.
GS: See I can remember going but I can't, and I can kinda remember what his garage looked like but I don't remember anything else around there.I just remember that...
GC: Well McCay funeral home is right there and just go right down the street.
RJ: Where did you buy your shoes?
[laughter]
GC: At Goodwill!
GS: Even back then?
GC: Yes! Let me tell you, I’m not ashamed of it, I'm laughing cause it's gonna be funny. I went, I shopped for everybody. We were poor, when I got married, we were poor, cause I wasn't working at Tinker anymore or anything like that. My husband said stay home and be with the kids. I went to the Raghouse. You hear Kate talk about the Raghouse?
GS: Mh hm.
GC: It was across the track from 4th street you go over the railroads and there was the Raghouse. People worked there. Everybody who was rich or whatever brought all their clothes there.
RJ: You saying Raghouse.
GC: That's what it was called, Raghouse. That was the name of it. And they piled the clothes outdoors and then the ones, they took a lot of em, clean em up and hang them up in the building. I went out there and dug into some. I went inside, I bought a pair of shoes there for fifty cents. That's been years and years and years and years before. When I went to nurses training I wore those shoes.
TF: They lasted!
GC: And see let me say this, I'm just talking now. People don't understand, and if I could get to Goodwill now that's where I'd be. You can save money, do you know one thing, if you think I'm lying you go, in Salvation Army and Goodwill you find more white folks there than you do black folks, that's got any sense. Not that you all don’t have sense.
TF: I go there.
GC: Do you really. You know what I'm talking about then, am I lying?
TF: You're not lying.[laughter]
GC: And they got money, And the reason they got money, they know how to go and save money.
GS: Mh hm, and find things.
GC: And when you go there and buy clothes and things, I can buy better clothes there than I can going to the store, cause I don't have that kind of money. Am I Lying?
TF: You're not lying. You save money.
GC: And you go there, now the only thing I don't buy there is underclothes.
TF: No that's not good.
GC: I don't buy underclothes. I buy shoes there, bring them home, put them in the washing machine and wash them. Take them outdoors and let them dry. Take a break. That's where you save your money.
TF: Did you ever go to see movies at the Jewel theater?
GC: I never been that fond of, I'm always the kind... When I came up I chopped wood, I washed on a tub and rub board and hang them on the clothesline, I chopped wood. I was the oldest in my family.
TF: Are you describing your hobbies or your chores?
GC: I'm trying to tell you I love it.
TF: You like working.
GC: And I'm always too busy to go to the movies. I want to be busy. I don't have time to sit at the movies.
TF: Did you let your kids go to the movies?
GC: Yes. I took them, left them, and went back and got them.
TF: Which theater did you take them to?
GC: The one down on 4th street.
Gs: Jewel?
GC: Jewel Theater. I never went up on Aldrich because that was too fast a part of town for me.
GS: The Aldrich was in Deep Deuce I'll say it again...
GC: To fast down there.
GS: She said that twice that it was too fast.
RJ: This was actually the third time. [laughter]
GS: Third time, there was too much going on down in Deep Deuce.
RJ: Too much action!
GC: I want to make sure you hear me!
TF: You like the quieter places.
GC: Yeah and then there was another theater down on Bath and...7th and Bath for a while, I don't think I ever take them, I took them to..
GS: The Jewel.
GC: The Jewel.
GS: Well Aunt Gerry we are gonna stop.
GC: No dont stop!
GS: Ok!
TF: We’re keeping you all from your dinner.
RJ: We can come back and do round two.
GS: Rachel has to drive all the way back up to Stillwater and so...they have been here since 8 o’clock this morning so we are totally exhausted.
GC: Oh so they're tired. You gotta go to Stillwater too?
TF: No, I live here in town.
GC: What part of town?
TF: Up near the village.
GC: Oh you told me, yeah you told me.
TF: Well she grew up there, I live there, I live by her parents!
GC: Well, that village is not too far from here.
TF: It's not far at all.
RJ: But I gotta go all the way back to Stillwater.
GS: She's a professor at Stillwater...
GC: Well that's a pretty good little jump.
RJ: It is, I drive by Langston on the way there.
GC: It's not too far from Lnagston though.
TF: Thank you so much for your stories!
GC: Ok I hope I helped.