Description:
John Bailey talks about growing up in Oklahoma, his life as a police officer, and his career as a writer.
Transcript:
Interviewee: John Bailey
Interviewer: Susie Beasley
Interview Date: 12/4/2007
Interview Location: Unknown
Susie Beasley: My name is Susie Beasley and I am interviewing John Bailey. John, tell me where you were born.
John Bailey: Ponca City, Oklahoma.
SB: Give us some background on growing up and being born in Ponca City.
JB: I was born in Ponca City, but we moved to Ardmore when I was about five years old. I spent most of my time growing up in Ardmore, between Ardmore and Gene Autry, Oklahoma.
SB: How was that in the time that you grew up? What year were you born?
JB: 1936.
SB: 1936. You had just kind of finished up with the Depression, but they were going through the Dust Bowl.
JB: Yes.
SB: Give me some insight as to how that was growing up in Ardmore.
JB: I grew up in the time of segregation. I was living in the all-black community during that time. My mother was a manager at a restaurant on East Main Street in Ardmore.
SB: She was manager at a restaurant?
JB: Yes.
SB: Did you ever help out at the restaurant?
JB: Yes, some.
SB: How about that experience? How was that for you?
JB: Well, it helped me to establish the quality that you learn how to work and make something out of myself.
SB: Do you have any brothers and sisters?
JB: Two brothers and two sisters.
SB: You were, what? The middle child? Older?
JB: The oldest child.
SB: So you were trying to lead by example.
JB: Yes.
SB: Your relationship with your brothers and sisters?
JB: I was about six years older than my brother, who was next to me. We didn’t communicate too much, but we talked and we ate at the breakfast table and everything. We ate all three meals together. He’d been six years older than my brother that was next to me.
SB: He was the kid.
JB: Yes.
SB: And you were the big brother.
JB: Yes.
SB: That was kind of like not a good situation from time to time because you wanted to boss him, probably. [laughs]
JB: [laughing] Yeah, probably.
SB: What was your relationship with your mother and helping her out at the restaurant and your interactions with the people who came into the restaurant? How was that?
JB: I usually just swept the floors and things like that. Sometimes I tried to help wait on the customers, but I wasn’t too good at that.
SB: Now the customers that came in – you said you lived in the all-Black section of the town because of the time. Did she have a lot of community support?
JB: Yes. During the breakfast and noon run, most of the customers were white. Our restaurant was right at the railroad tracks in Ardmore, so most customers that kept the business going were white. Also, the neighborhood that I lived in, it was a mixed neighborhood. Whites and Blacks lived in the same neighborhood, kind of a middle-class neighborhood, but we didn’t go to school together, or to church and different things like that.
SB: This time frame, even when they came to eat there, you didn’t go to church or school with them. How was the relationship?
JB: They came in and they were real nice. They left tips and everything. They were real nice.
SB: How was your mother accepted as far as being a business and she was the manager of it? There was no friction? No one tried to throw bricks in the window or anything like that?
JB: No, no friction at all.
SB: How did you come about with your upbringing, your beliefs and your values? You’ve written a book, and this book is America in Color: One Man’s Take on Multiculturalism in the United States. You focus on the central part of your childhood and upbringing, which is your grandmother. Her name was - ?
JB: Victoria Lofton.
SB: Give us some insight into her influence over your upbringing.
JB: The way I met my grandmother, my mother told me that she was going to take me out to meet her mother. My grandmother lived in Gene Autry, Oklahoma, which at one time was name Berwyn, Oklahoma. Gene Autry, the famous cowboy, had lived down in Talbot, Texas, and he tried to get them to change Talbot, Texas to Gene Autry. They wouldn’t do it, so he came up to Oklahoma and spent a lot of money there. They accepted him and decided to change the name of Berwyn to Gene Autry, Oklahoma.
SB: And that’s where your grandmother lived.
JB: Yes. She lived out there in Gene Autry.
SB: So your mother hoodwinked you into going and visiting this person you didn’t know anything about out in Gene Autry.
JB: Yes. It was an experience that I never will forget. I was real young. When we first stopped at the house, it was a little, small house on top of a hill, and when we stopped there and my grandmother comes to the door, I was stunned. I thought that we were stopping at another residence on the way to my grandmother’s. Because of the way my grandmother looked, I was expecting my mother, in other words, to look like her mother, but it was completely different because she was real fair-skinned and my mother was dark. We stood there and they talked for a while. After a while, my mother put a suitcase on the floor. I wondered why she was doing it, but I didn’t say anything, of course. She said, “This is where you’re going to stay.” So, I looked up again at my grandmother. She said, “This is my mother.” I looked up and couldn’t believe. Anyway, I stayed there and one of my first cousins came over. Her name was Ella Stephens and we were about the same age. My uncle came in. His name was Ed Lofton. The next day, she started teaching us our ABCs and our numbers. We had to learn these ABCs forwards and backwards.
SB: You had to go from Z all the way to A and A to Z?
JB: Yeah, and back. The she taught us how to do math and everything. She had a reminder there if we missed it first. She would remind us to get it correct.
SB: How did she do that? What was her method?
JB: Kind of a long switch.
SB: A long switch. Wasn’t called Mr. Green Jeans?
JB: No.
SB: It was just a long switch?
JB: Yeah.
SB: And you knew to get it right.
JB: Get it right because what she was doing was preparing us for school. We didn’t realize it at the time, but that’s what she was getting us ready for. Then she started teaching us how to spell simple words like “cat” and “rat” or “dog” and “paint” or “brush.” Different colors and different things about how to make it in life. She instilled in us that if we wanted to be successful, we had to have an education.
SB: So, your mother took you to this woman’s house and you didn’t know who it was, and it was your grandmother.
JB: Yes.
SB: Do you think about it a lot now?
JB: Oh yes. She’s really what we – she was kind of the leader of the entire family.
SB: Can you share about the lessons that she fielded your way besides the ABC and Z to A and the numerals?
JB: Going to church. We were all churchgoers because her family was a Christian family. Her maiden name was Crouch, and I’m sure you’ve heard of Andre and Sandra Crouch.
SB: The gospel music people?
JB: Yes. She grew up on the church in Kaufman, Texas. At the time I didn’t know she was from Kaufman, Texas, but every Wednesday night and Saturday evening and Sunday, we were in church all day. Those were the main things she instilled in us.
SB: To go to church. You learned the Beatitudes and the Scripture and the “thou shalls” and the “thou shalt nots?”
JB: Yes, and another thing that she always talked about – we had to respect women. If a lady came to the house, we had to wait on her. She needed a drink of water or Kool Aid or whatever she needed, we had to get it for her.
SB: What were (unintelligible) as far as your grandmother? What were her people like? You said that you were surprised at the way she looked. How did she come about looking the way she did?
JB: Well, she was a mixed, mixed with Indian.
SB: Native American. What particular tribe?
JB: Some said Seminole and some said Creek.
SB: What did she say?
JB: She said Seminole.
SB: That was a story that was handed down, that she was part Native American ancestry, Seminole tribe.
JB: Yes.
SB: Did you share that with your children? Your mother never told you.
JB: No.
SB: Do you think she had ambivalence about Native American ancestry?
JB: No, I don’t. I think it just wasn’t as important to her as it was to my grandmother.
SB: But your grandmother wanted you to know and share it?
JB: Yes, because she always describing her mother. She never said anything her father. She always talked about her mother.
SB: What did she say about her mother?
JB: She describes her features and everything. We used to ask her where she got her complexion and everything from. That’s what she would tell us. She would describe her skin, the texture and everything, and her hair, the texture, and we would talk about it.
SB: She got it from her mother.
JB: Yes.
SB: Did her mother influence her as far as faith and church and family in Texas?
JB: Yes.
SB: How did she come to Oklahoma?
JB: They came up about 1890 when everyone else was leaving Texas and coming to Oklahoma, basically because I would imagine they would be freer in Oklahoma than they would in Texas.
SB: Do you think it had something to do with the all-black state?
JB: Yes. I do.
SB: She lived the rest of her life in Oklahoma in Gene Autry?
JB: Yes.
SB: How was she accepted in Gene Autry, your grandmother?
JB: She was well-respected in Gene Autry and Ardmore, too. When we went to Ardmore, we would go up to Woolworth’s, and a lot of times when you went into Woolworth’s store in Ardmore – it was on East Main Street.
SB: Kind of like in a storefront, a department store.
JB: Yes. When you walked in the door, they had a counter there and they had about eight real nice booths on the east side of Woolworths. Then on the west side, the booths had duct tape on them. That was the Colored section.
SB: They had the signs up, right?
JB: Yes, they had the signs up. That’s where we had to sit, but in the meantime, what’s amazing about this is when my grandmother would be right there sitting with us, the waitress would come back and want to know why she was sitting with us because that’s where the Colored people would sit. She would go into details and explain to them that we were her grandchildren. They were amazed. They looked in disbelief.
SB: She claimed you.
JB: [laughs] Yes.
SB: So they didn’t kick her out or make her move?
JB: No.
SB: She wanted to sit with you because she claimed you. That was one experience that you had with your grandmother. Can you share some other ones with her? When you stayed with her and she was teaching you math and everything, your cousin – how close were you to your cousins?
JB: Oh, we were real close. We were first cousins and we were real close. We studied together and went to school together. Ardmore school turned out in two weeks. Two weeks and I would go out to Gene Autry and spend time with my grandma.
SB: What did she do? How did she earn a living, your grandmother?
JB: She didn’t have to work because they had a farm. During that particular time, a lot of women didn’t have to work. My uncle worked, so she didn’t have to work.
SB: Your mother’s father, your grandmother’s husband, your grandfather, who was he and what happened with him?
JB: His last name was Lofton. He came from a family that was more of an outlaw. I write about him in my book.
SB: Outlaw? In what way? A criminal?
JB: Yes. Actually, in Gene Autry, in the movie with John Wayne, True Grit, part of that movie was based on my father’s family where the girl falls in the rattlesnake pit. That story was based on my grandfather’s family.
SB: Can you elaborate on the girl falling into the rattlesnake pit?
JB: Okay. That was about a story called – it has two names, “Clayton’s Rattlesnake Pit” and also “Dead Man’s Cave.”
SB: So, this relates to your grandfather because he was -?
JB: Because his brother was involved. He wasn’t, but the story talks about his family.
SB: This criminal activity that your grandfather was involved in was -?
JB: They were bootlegging.
SB: So, you’re the grandson of a bootlegger.
JB: Yes. They were bootlegging.
SB: Which is basically you’re making spirits and selling it.
JB: Yeah. [laughs]
SB: What’s another name for it now? Moonshining, right?
JB: [laughing] Yes. Yes. This was in the Arbuckle Mountains. That’s where it was close to.
SB: So, he was a moonshiner. Did they do corn liquor?
JB: Yes, completely opposite of my grandma.
SB: Well, that’s probably why he was where he was. Something evidently brought them together because your mother [trails off].
JB: They were together in Texas, but he left my grandma in Texas and moved to Oklahoma. That’s how they split up. Then he got involved in another family and started another family. I write about all of it in my book. He started off another family, and then after my grandmother’s two oldest children were almost adults, for some unknown reason he goes back to Texas and gets my grandmother and brings her up to Oklahoma. In the meantime, he still has another family.
SB: That was quite common during that time.
JB: Yes, it was.
SB: When he came, did he have any honest means of working?
JB: [laughing] No.
SB: [laughing] Not as far as you know. It’s pretty lucrative being a bootlegger. You said you write this book and you write about your grandmother and how she influenced you. Give us some other insight into her later years.
JB: In later years, she moved into Ardmore and started living with my aunt, my Aunt Sadie, who lived next door to us. That’s where she died. She was in her 90s then. She still worked. We had to stop her from working because a lot of times she would be out trying to sweep the streets, and we had to tell her that was the Street Department’s job, to keep the street clean.
SB: Do you think she did it because she was always a worker, a hard worker?
JB: Yes. She always worked. She used to like to crochet and quilt and do a lot of things.
SB: Do you have any of her quilts?
JB: No, I don’t.
SB: Did your mother save any of those items?
JB: No.
SB: Can you give us some idea about your growing years once you got your schooling and everything in Ardmore? What did you do after that?
JB: I went to work for Cooper’s Dairy. I was working at Cooper’s Dairy, and I was [unintelligible] they had a restaurant in front of the dairy plant in Ardmore. Southern Cooperation bought out Cooper’s Dairy Plant, and when they bought out the dairy plant, they got a six-month contract with Tinker Air Force Base. When they got this contract, Tinker Air Force Base told them that it was a government contract and they needed to have some African Americans working there. What they did, instead of going out and hiring two Blacks, we had a Black man that was working that was a mechanic. They put him in the dairy plant, and they moved me from the kitchen back to the dairy plant to cover the quota. When the contract was up, I went in to talk to the plant superintendent because I was planning on going back to the front to work in the kitchen. The plant superintendent looked at me and said, “This is nonsense. We’re just going to keep you back here.” That’s how I got my first big break in life.
SB: Because you worked –
JB: Worked in the dairy plant and finally ended up working in the layup, which was a good job for Blacks during that period of time.
SB: Give me some idea about your formal schooling. You said you graduated from school in Ardmore.
JB: Yeah, Ardmore-Douglass.
SB: You worked at the dairy plant and that gave you your start and all that. What did you do after that?
JB: After that, I became a police officer. This is kind of another story like the first story. I got out of church one night and my mother told me the police department had been by there looking for me several times. I wondered why they were coming by.
SB: You thought you were in trouble.
JB: Yeah. They were looking for me. Then I left home and went up on the streets at the pool hall, and some of my classmates told me the police had been there several times looking for me too. I said, “Well, I’ll see what they want.” Finally, they drove up in their unit and the Black officer was sitting in the back seat. At that time, Black officers wasn’t driving patrol cars. He got out of the back seat and told me they wanted to talk to me, but it happened they had an auxiliary police department in Ardmore. The captain asked me if I would join the auxiliary. He said he talked to several older people that lived in the community and they recommended me, so I became an auxiliary police officer. Later, we went to reserve police department. That’s how I got started in law enforcement.
SB: What year was that?
JB: That was 1966.
SB: When you became an auxiliary police officer, give us an idea of what kind of experience that was.
JB: During that time, like I say, we didn’t have a patrol unit that we drove. We had to walk, so we just walked up and down the streets in Ardmore. We’d walk east on the north side of Main Street, and when we got down about three blocks, we’d cross over and come up the other side shaking doors and checking businesses. Then we’d have to go around to check the back doors to see if anyone had attempted to break into these buildings.
SB: Known as a beat cop at that time.
JB: Yes. Yes. Beat cops. Flat foots.
SB: [laughing] Okay. That’s another term for flat foots. You did that for several years, and then you all moved into the reserve unit. What kind of experience was that?
JB: The reserve unit, we started having gang activities then. At one time, they had an Air Force base in Ardmore. They started having gang activities, and what’s amazing about it is there was one I never will forget.
The chief of the police department in Ardmore gave us a car, and when he gave us this car, it was just like getting a new toy. We were real proud and we had a new toy. Our job was to drive from the northern part of Ardmore to the south part of Ardmore because that’s where these gangs were fighting. All we had to do was if we’d see a group of guys walking together, we’d stop and check them out and see if they had any weapons or anything on them. The story gets better because one Saturday night is an experience I never will forget because I write about it in my book. Lieutenant Wortham called us to assist him. We wanted to know what he was doing that we needed to assist him. What had happened was all the white officers were busy. On 8th Street, they had a lot of bars and clubs and a group of Indians was in a fight with a group of white guys from Texas. When we walked in, everybody just stopped and looked at us. We made several arrests, and after that was over with, the lieutenant got scared and wrote the chief a letter because he knew he was going to be in trouble for calling us to assist him. The chief fooled him, and what he did is we already had a patrol car, but he gave us a district, so we didn’t have to just work in the Black community anymore. We were assigned a district. That was a big experience.
SB: Times were changing and shifting and you were becoming more of a unit.
JB: Yes.
SB: Give us some ideas of your relationship with your fellow officers. You mentioned how your lieutenant felt he was going to be in trouble, but the chief surprised him. Give us an idea about your experience you had with your fellow officers, the Anglo and the African American.
JB: When we first started off, everything was like they were afraid to talk about certain things in front of us. Everything was just strictly business. If they wanted to talk about things they talked about among themselves around us, they didn’t talk about that around us. Everything was strictly business. Later on, I went to work in Gainsville, Texas, and I got in Gainsville, Texas the same way I started off in Ardmore. The chief of the police department in Gainsville, Texas’s nephew was the chief of the police department in Ardmore. He decided that they needed some Black officers, and the chief of police in Ardmore recommended me to the chief in Gainsville, Texas. That was in 1968, October of 1968. That’s how I got in Gainsville, Texas, and I stayed there until I retired.
SB: How was Texas in relation to Oklahoma as far as your relationship in law enforcement?
JB: Texas is a lot different than Oklahoma because in Texas, it was kinda like night and day. In Oklahoma, there wasn’t as much prejudice as there was in Texas, so in Texas, I had a hard time adjusting.
SB: But you hung in there.
JB: Yeah, but I had a real hard time. In fact, when I was off duty, I might see some of the officers I worked with and they wouldn’t even speak to me because they would be afraid of what someone would say about them speaking to a Black man out in public. It was a lot different. I don’t know if you know, but that’s why OU used to get all of the Texas football players during that period of time, because Texas wouldn’t play them. Jerry LeVias was the first Black football player at a major college in Texas, which was SMU, and that was the reason why that OU started off with Prentice Gautt back in the ‘60s.
SB: During this time, how were your relationships in the community? How was your relationships with other people? Were you still continuing church and being involved in that? Had you gotten married? What was going on?
JB: I got married in 1973.
SB: Still?
JB: Yes.
SB: So that means you’ve been married about 30 years.
JB: Thirty-four years.
SB: What sustained you in this marriage for 34 years?
JB: Faith and hard work.
SB: It takes a lot of hard work.
JB: Yes.
SB: Give us an idea about your tenacity about this book, this America In Color?
JB: This America In Color, this is my pride and joy. This is something I wanted to do all my life because I had to. When I was a police officer, I used to hear a lot of people making a lot of different statements.
SB: Such as?
JB: About African Americans. You know, the stereotypes, especially when they were talking about the ethnic makeup and the background. For some unknown reason, this is just my opinion, they wanted to relate everything to Africa. That was my reason for writing a book because I knew that growing up with and spending a lot of time with my grandmother, I knew that I didn’t like being accused of not being a citizen of the United States. During that time, if a person saw an African American or a Black person, they just assumed that they were from Africa. I said, “I’m a citizen of the United States so I’m American. I’m not African.” I’m not ashamed of my African origin or my African ancestors, but at the same time I feel that my grandmother gave me a right to be a citizen of this country, not only me but a lot of other African Americans too. Eighty percent of African Americans that live in the United States are mixed European and African and Native American. I think one thing I discovered when I was researching this book is people don’t understand Africa is a continent.
SB: With many countries.
JB: Yeah. Yeah, and each country and every tribe and every nation over there, they don’t have the same culture. They don’t even speak the same language, so they’re different over there. They’re religious and everything. On the west coast of Africa, most of them are Christians. When you go into South Africa, you have a lot of Catholics. When you go further north, you start picking up the Muslims. These people have different opinions just like here. Another important thing that I discovered is people forget that America is also a continent. People have come to the conclusion that you have to live in the United States to be American and don’t understand that you have Canada and the United States and Mexico. Another thing I discovered that they forget about is the five states that used to belong to Mexico. It’s just an interesting thing.
SB: Louisiana belonged to the French.
JB: Yes. It’s very interesting. I discovered that it’s very complicated because people forget that we started off on the east coast and then we started going west. You have all these different cultures and they forget about England. They forget that England was kind of what you would call the ruler of everything. Everywhere the Spanish went and the French went, they were chasing them and they would take over. There’s a lot more to writing the book. I wanted to go into deep details and I wanted to write something that people didn’t believe. In other words, I didn’t want to tickle their ears. I didn’t want to tell them something they wanted to hear. I wanted to tell them something that had the actual facts because I discovered some things that was even hard for me to accept, but I had to, mostly about the slave trade. That was real interesting because you have these different you had these different nations like Ashanti and Fante. The Fante fought with the Dutch. No, Ashanti fought with the Dutch and Fante fought with the British. They combined together and they fought against each other, so all these countries that came to the United States, a lot of people don’t understand they had already been at war with each other on the west coast of Africa. There’s some of the things I point out in my books.
SB: Also the nations of Native American tribes. How many were recognized? Thirty-nine? And of course, the Five Civilized. What has your issue been on the planet for 70-plus years?
JB: Seventy-one.
SB: What’s going on in your world right now besides the book? Are you involved in any community activities or community organizations?
JB: Yes. I belong to the Five Civilized Tribes Freedmen organization.
SB: (unintelligible)
JB: Five Civilized Tribes.
SB: What exactly does this group do?
JB: They try to get recognition of being members of the Five Civilized Tribes, which they definitely deserve. What people don’t understand is when you start talking about the Trail of Tears, this has a lot to do with history books and movies because they believed that everybody on the Trail of Tears was Indian. They don’t realize that a lot of Blacks were on the Trail of Tears also. They were slaves and a lot of free Blacks that was on the Trail of Tears.
SB: So, this organization are descendants of the freedmen, are fighting for the survival of their identity and culture, as well as their rights, based on -?
JB: The 1866 treaty.
SB: The treaty. Okay. The treaties that have been written and agreed to and broken on both sides, so you’re of the impression that this battle is worth fighting?
JB: Oh yes.
SB: What’s the outcome right now? What’s the current situation?
JB: They’re still in court. The freedmen got accepted, and then they – especially the Cherokees – had a vote to amend their Constitution to kick them out. They’re still fighting.
SB: And the other tribes like the Creek?
JB: They’re still doing the same thing. All of them are trying to keep them out. The basis of this is about political money because they have a lot of casinos and political deals, so it’s political.
SB: How many was there? What’s the percentage of freedman are we talking about? Are we talking about thousands of people?
JB: It’s over 2,000 people.
SB: Over 2,000, but it’s not 325,000.
JB: No, as far as I know. What we’re doing now – I’m involved in working on two more books.
SB: Give us some background on those.
JB: It’s about the freedmen. What I’ve done now is look for a lot of freedmen that were Black males that were married to Indian women. That’s what I’m looking for now because with Blacks, the maternal – it has to come from the female, and it has to be an Indian female. The reason for doing that is most of the relationships were between Indian males and Black females, but if you’re a member of any other nationality, it’s easy to get in. That’s basically what we’re fighting now.
SB: But you’re writing your next book on –
JB: Yes, writing the next book. Well, I’m working on two books at the same time. I’m working on a book about Lieutenant Henry Flipper.
SB: The first Black to graduate from West Point. He was a descendent of Robert Alexander, the attorney in Oklahoma City. How far into your manuscript are you for Lieutenant Flipper?
JB: We just got a few pages into it, but we still have a long way to go.
SB: You’ve gotten research data from the National Archives?
JB: Yes, and some of it is from the Oklahoma Metropolitan Library System.
SB: And of course, the Oklahoma History Center.
JB: Yes.
SB: What is the outlook for the descendants of the freedman and the state of America?
JB: I think they’ll eventually win, but it’s going to be a long hard battle. In my opinion, this should have been taken care of back in the 1960s when they started the Civil Rights era. I think it should have. That would have been the best time to get it taken care of. Now, because you have all these casinos and all these benefits and going to college and medical benefits - for example, we just got our great-granddaughter’s CDIB card. It took six months to get that card. Six months.
SB: Do you have your papers from the Seminole?
JB: No.
SB: Did your grandmother?
JB: No. She was born in Texas.
SB: So, she was never on the rolls.
JB: No, but I have a lot of first cousins that are qualified to be on there, but they’re not entered because the maternal side was a Black female and the male was Indian. That’s how they got out of it, but they are qualified to be on it.
SB: Because of the criteria, they don’t meet the criteria. As far as the state of America in relation to African Americans and mixed heritage or mixed ethnicity, what’s the outlook?
JB: It’s going through a real phase now. I think – this is my belief and my opinion – I believe it was more in pre-colonial times than it is now, but it was just in a different way because people didn’t want to talk about it, especially in the Deep Southern states like Louisiana, South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi. I have a book I call (unintelligible) and it goes into details and talks about it.
SB: Do you think the history books will glean more insight into this?
JB: I think they just accept it. Thomas Jefferson’s family - about two or three years ago, I’m not sure, but they finally mentioned Sally Hemmings, about Sally Hemmings, about his extra family by Sally Hemmings. During the period of time that I was back in school, Jefferson was a great president and George Washington never told a lie and all this good stuff. I believe that now, since they came out with all the information about Thomas Jefferson, it’s better. What people really don’t understand is it did happen, because a lot of times the plantation owners didn’t have any children by their wives. The only time they had children was by the female slaves, and in the will, the property was made out to their biracial children. People don’t understand that a lot of these families eventually went – and I know this hard because I got myself in trouble a lot of times – a lot of people don’t believe me when I say this. A lot of these families went from being Black to being white. That’s a hard thing for people to believe and understand. It’s easier to understand their family going from being white to Black, but it’s hard to understand how a family can go completely from being a Black family to being a white family.
SB: It’s the ultimate passing.
JB: Yes.
SB: It did happen quite a bit. A lot of historical families and their recent literary works that have just come out concerning that very thing, that issue. What is your opinion on the Strom Thurman family situation?
JB: Oh, I loved it because he’d made a lot of different statements about African Americans and what he didn’t believe in, and at the same time he had a daughter by a lady that was an employee of his family. I think, I believe it’s a great story and I loved it. That’s basically – when I do my research, that’s the type of family that I look for.
SB: The senator’s daughter was the icing on the cake.
JB: Yes, and a very educated lady, too.
SB: She was a retired teacher. To wrap up, tell us about your family. I know you have a son that is a motivational speaker. Give us some background on what your son is doing and the other members of your family and the grandkids.
JB: I have five children and my oldest son works for Heaven 97 radio station, and he has his own business. He graduated from East Central College. My oldest daughter is a homemaker. She lives in Ardmore, Oklahoma. My middle son is a captain of the Dallas Fire Department. He graduated from Southeastern. My youngest daughter teaches at the University of Arizona. She graduated from OU. My youngest son works at Walmart in Ardmore.
SB: The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree as far as that work ethic that the grandmother, Mrs. Lofton passed on. We really appreciate you sharing your story. We all have stories. Keep writing and reading and keep sharing.
JB: Okay. Thanks.
SB: Thank you, Mr. Bailey.
End of Interview.