Description:
George Richardson talks about his life and his career as an educator.
Transcript:
George Richardson 9-14-07
Interviewee: George Melvin Richardson and his wife who wasn’t named
Interviewer: Doesn’t give their name, also I think third person is present here handling the recording.
Date: Not given in the interview. I’m assuming the date in the title is the date of this recording.
Transcribed 6/9-6/11
Interviewer (1):
Well today I’m going to be talking with Mr. Richardson. And the reason I’m talking with Mr. Richardson is because Mr. Richardson, you were a local businessman back in the Fairgrounds, back in the day. And we’re gonna talk about the business venture that you were a part of in the section that we called the ‘Fairgrounds.’ And were going to talk a little bit about you because you have a very exciting history. I can tell already. I want to begin by asking you to give your full name.
George (2):
My full name is George Melvin Richardson.
1:
Alright. You said, depending on where you live, they’ll call you George or Melvin.
2:
Yes.
1:
And so in Oklahoma City you’re known as…?
2:
George, basically.
1.
“George,” okay. And what is your birthday, Mr. Richardson?
2:
3/1/13 [He says “three, one, thirteen].
1:
As of today, you are how old?
2:
Ninety-four.
1:
Ninety-four. What a blessing indeed, that’s wonderful. And where were you born?
2:
Holdenville, Oklahoma.
1:
Holdenville! So, you’re an Okie. You’re a bona fide Okie.
2: My dad was principal there at that time
1:
Oh, so your dad was principal in Holdenville?
2:
In Holdenville.
1:
Wonderful. Okay, so you were educated in the Holdenville school system?
2:
No, I started there. My brother and I were both—he’s two years older than I am. My mother started school the same year.
1:
Oh.
2:
Therefore, I left and went to several other schools in the state before graduating from high school.
1
And where did you graduate from?
2
Langston University High School.
1
Oh you know what, I met a lady a couple of weeks ago who graduated from Langston University High School. And why were you all the way in Langston graduating?
2
Well, my brother wanted to leave Okmulgee; we were in high school there. He wanted to go there, so I went with him to Langston University High School.
1
And then after high school, what happened for you? Where did you go?
2
I continued at Langston University for the next four years.
1
So you went right out of high school into Langston; very good. What was your major?
2
Education, basically, and some courses in business administration.
1
So with your father being a principal, having attained that kind of occupational goal, that it was kind of natural for you to go to higher learning institution. Now, what year was it when you went to Langston University approximately?
2
I graduated from high school in 1931.
1
Okay
2.
And finished Langston University in 1936. I skipped one year, came back, and finished in 1936.
1
So, you came out of Langston in 1936. And did you go into the military after that?
2
No, I went to be principal of a small school in Okmulgee County.
1
Oh?
2
For three years
1
And was it a predominantly black school?
2
Yes, it was.
1
Do you remember the name of the school?
2
Ball Hill
1
Ball Hill?
2
Yes
1
Okay, Ball Hill High school
2
No, it was Elementary at that time
1
Ball Hill Elementary School? I’ve never heard of Ball Hill.
2
It’s not too well known [both laugh]. Then I went to Arlington, Virginia for one year. Principal there.
1
And then what happened after Arlington?
2
After I left there, I went to be principal at Gene Autry.
1
Back in Oklahoma?
2
Yes. No wait. All of this is Oklahoma.
1
Except for Virginia
2
No that’s way after that
1
So that was way afterwards, okay. But you were a principal in Gene Autry, Oklahoma?
2
Gene Autry.
1
Was it an Indian school?
2
No, it was all black.
1
In Gene Autry, Oklahoma?
2
It was called Berwin first. When I was there it was changed to Gene Autry.
1
It was called what, first?
2
Berwin [the interviewer confirms]. And the next year it was Gene Autry. It’s still Gene Autry.
1
Okay. You’ve had quite a career in principalships or administrative positions in the educational system.
2
Yes, I went there in 1940. And as a matter of fact, I got this job on our wedding trying to go to Texas. And my wife got a job there. We both got a job at Gene Autry in 1940.
1
Alright. And how long did you stay there?
2
Two years.
1
And after that?
2
I was drafted into service, into the armed services.
1
Oh, you were drafted?
2
Yes. I was commissioned at Ft. Sill in the field artillery. I served in the military for three years and I came back and I went back into education. That’s when I came into this business with (Unclear in part because the interviewer is speaking over him here).
1
Okay, after the military, then. How did you all become business partners?
2
I heard he was in the process of trying to get a theater started. And I think he had a partner before I came in. I don’t know what happened, but I heard about it and I came here to--I wanted to go into business. I was trying to decide where I wanted to stay in the army or go into business. So, then I came and talked with him and we formed a partnership there with my sister also. She bought into the operation.
1
She was also a partner.
2
Yes
1
And what was your sister’s name?
2
Amy Jean Lewis, and she was also a partner. Small interest.
1
When you went into business with Mr. J.W. Sandford Sr., what was the name of the theater again?
2
East Side Theater.
1
The East Side Theater [George confirms]? Was it already opened for business?
2
No, we built it.
1
You built it [in apparent surprise]. Oh my goodness.
2
We built it. There was nothing there.
1
There was nothing there. What a huge venture to go into. I don’t know if you’ll remember any of this, but where did you get the specifications for the building and all of that? Did you have an architect?
2
Yes, we had an architect.
1
A black man?
2
Yes. I bought into it, the business. And so did my sister for a small interest.
1
And then you built that theater. How exciting. You know when I was a kid, I used to go to the East Side Theater, of course [a clock chimes somewhere in the room]. I think this was the first movie that I saw, it was Rock Around the Clock. I think that was the first movie and I think that came out in like about 1957 or ‘58 or something like that.
2
I was gone at that time
1
You were gone at that time? Well I believe that was my first movie. And I remember on that movie they had the Platters. And the Platters were singing the “Great Pretender.” That’s one of my fondest memories is sitting there watching the big screen, watching them on the big screen. It was very exciting.
2
I guess I’ve always been interested in business. My first job at Ball Hill I took over a service station and hired some young men to operate it for me. So I’ve always been kind of interested in that type of thing.
1
Okay, a service station, a movie theater - what other business ventures were you involved in? Do you remember?
2
Well when I went to Arlington, Virginia I built three (unintelligible) homes there and had a little property going. And I also initiated a project still going called the Arlington Neighborhood Conservation Program and they’ve spent over seventeen million dollars on that program. It’s still going.
1
It’s still going today?
2
Yes. They’re still helping people to build better neighborhoods, that type of thing. I’ve got a lot of interest in that. A lot of information on that.
1
Well, how exciting.
2
I came back here, and we decided to buy some property here. We bought seven houses here in Oklahoma City before we built this house.
1
And where were those houses? Do you remember?
2
East side.
1
East side on the fairgrounds area?
2
Not quite. It’s on Hardin Drive.
1
Oh, Hardin Drive. Hardin Drive would be just before you get to 23rd Street? Hardin Drive in that area. That was Crescent Hills. That was a part of the Crescent Hills.
2
I had one over there and another on Hardin Drive. The church on the corner of Hardin Drive. Two houses near Idaho, I believe, or Rhode Island.
1
Yeah, it’d be Rhode Island in that area. I’m amazed that in that day and time you had that kind of business acumen. You know what I mean, that sense for entrepreneurship, for obtaining property, for going into real estate, purchasing real estate. Was your father business-minded like that?
2
Nope. Education was his main goal in life. As a matter of fact, he started teaching when he was in eighth grade.
1
Oh yes, they used to do that. When you finished the eighth grade you could become a teacher. Yes, I remember hearing that.
2
He was born the year after the Emancipation Proclamation, my dad was.
1
Alright. Let’s go a little further back into your dad’s history. He had both parents?
2
I think so, yes.
1
Were they free? They weren’t [The interviewer intends to say slaves here, but is interrupted]
2
I guess at the time it was still slavery because the emancipation was in 1863 and he was born 1864. So I’m sure at the time it hadn’t reached the point that they were free. He didn’t talk about it [He says something else here but the interviewer kind of talks over it].
1
Yes, there’s a lot of histories that were not talked about back then. So, your dad began teaching after he completed the eighth grade. And he became a principal?
2
He started in Texas. He came to Oklahoma for statehood. He first started out a subscription, people paying a little money to teach the kids, and then he was the first principal at Grayson. And also a--
1
Now where was Grayson?
2
Grayson, Oklahoma was near Henryetta, and Okmulgee. He was the first principal of the state there.
1
Alright. So when you decided to do this business thing, that was just a passion that you had?
2
Well I looked at our community, black communities. I always felt we could do it better and build better areas for our people to grow up and our kids to grow up. So that’s why I went into the matter of housing, that type of thing.
1
Yes. I’m thinking about that area where you said you bought some houses over there: Hardin Drive, Rhode Island, over in that area.
2
Yeah, and 55th street
1
Where?
2
55th street, 48th street, and Prospect.
1
Okay, now when would that—that would have been later on. 55th, 48th, and Prospect would have been later on.
2
Yes, after I came back to Oklahoma.
1
It would have been like after the sixties?
2
I came back here 1979. That’s when that started, after ’79.
1
Okay, because before that we weren’t yet across 23rd Street. We were still south of 23rd Street.
2
Yes. When I left here they had gotten as far as 8th street.
1
Eighth Street, that’s right. People ask me, “Why are you stopping at 7th street?” See, I have boundaries for my Fairgrounds project, and the boundaries are Eastern up to Lottie. And 3rd Street up to 7th Street. And people say, “Why are you stopping at 7th Street?" I said, “Well there was a social stratum that changed when you crossed 7th Street. I was almost like going into a different community. It was different beyond 7th street.” You’re stating exactly why I’m kind of focusing in that area that we call the Fairgrounds. Now that strip where the East Side Theater was between northeast 6th and Bath, and that one-block area there down to 7th and Bath, there were businesses on both sides of that street. And I’m looking here, I see one, two, three, four…probably five, six, seven, eight just in this picture. And this picture is a part of the block of one side of the street. There were probably a couple more businesses on the corner. Like I said, my Uncle Buck’s garage was on the corner. And then next to that was like a gambling shack if I’m not mistaken. I know that because my daddy used to be in there. But there was like a gambling shack on something and there was a sandwich shop, a barbecue place, a record shop. Do you remember the record shop?
2
Yes, I remember it.
1
There was that record shop, which I don’t think was right next door, because I see a cleaners here and I think next to the cleaners may have been the record shop. And then there was something right next to the theater. Do you remember what was next door to you?
2
On the left side was a shoe shop, I think. Thompson had a shoe shop there.
1
I believe that’s correct. Do you remember what was on the other side?
2
I think at that particular time there was a vacant lot between.
2
Oh, at that time?
1
I don’t know what happened later on but at that time
2
It was vacant. Now, in this picture, it’s built up so there was something. I can’t remember. Maybe that was where Mr. Oliphant’s Jewelry Store was. There was a jeweler there and I believe that’s where his jewelry store was. Do you remember any of the other businesses that were across the street?
2
No, I don’t. There was a little shop further down Bath street. I don’t recall what it was at that time.
1
Was it on the opposite side?
2
No, on the same side.
1
In one of these pictures, on the corner, it says “Jackson’s Hot Spot” [both laugh]. Whatever that was. But I remember, when I was a kid, that at one time it was a barbecue place. And I also think that one time it eventually became a laundromat.
2
See, I left the state 31 years and came back.
1
When you left it was what year [she helps him fish for a date].
2
I left here in 1951 and went to New York City.
1
What did you do in New York City?
2
I went to Columbia University to get a Masters degree at that point. I stayed there one year and then went to the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area.
1
In New York did you go into any kind of business enterprise up there?
2
No, I was just in school. A full-time student.
1
And were you married at the time?
2
Yes.
1
And so your wife, was she also—
2
She was a teacher.
1
Then you left New York and went...?
2
Went to the Washington D.C., area and then to Arlington, Virgina. I was principal there.
1
And you stayed four years?
2
Arlington, I was there fourteen years in an all-black school and two years in an integrated school.
1
So, integration had taken place.
2
Yes. Then I went to Montgomery County. The schools there were all integrated. I was there thirteen years in Montgomery County.
1
And Montgomery County was in?
2
Maryland. Now the superintendent here now, Dr. Poder, he came from Montgomery County and the school system there.
1
Oh! Yes, he did come from Maryland. Have you met him yet?
2
I didn’t know him.
1
But have you met him yet?
2
No, I went by. He wasn’t there, when I was there, but I’m going to meet him this [this thought trails off and he chuckles]
1
Well you all have something in common to talk about.
2
I was there thirteen years.
1
Now when you came back to Oklahoma City the last time what did you do?
2
That’s when I built the houses and so forth, and I joined the Baptist Church. Tabernacle Baptist Church.
1
Tabernacle. Where was Tabernacle back then?
2
It’s on 36th street near—
1
No, where was it before then?
2
It was on 3rd street.
1
Northeast 3rd and…
2
[Pause] Lincoln Blvd. That was when I joined the church, and next year I was elected co-chair of the building committee. And I worked there quite a bit there at the church because I was also chairman of the trustee board at the church.
1
Let me ask you this about Tabernacle. Was the reason you all moved from NE 3rd and Lincoln—did urban renewal come in and—
2
No, the highway came through and took those buildings
1
That was when they were clearing people out of the area to make way for the Lincoln Blvd that we know today.
2
A new highway coming through. One or two churches at that time had to move. So we bought the property where we are now and built the church.
1
Since you were on the building committee, you know something about--the highway department bought you out so you could move. Did you all receive a fair price for that property?
2
I don’t think so. I guess, basically we should have gotten enough funds from that project to build in the new area. We didn’t get that.
1
Yes, that’s right. It was not equal.
2
They could have given the same footage in the new building that we had in the old building, but that wasn’t done that time.
1
That’s right. Do you find that happened with a lot of the people that were displaced from the area?
2
I imagine so.
1
That was kind of the trend of that day, wasn’t it?
2
I’m sure it was.
1
Yes, absolutely. Well Tabernacle has done well. They have thrived. They’ve done quite well where they are. So that was a blessing. Let’s go back and talk about the East Side Theater again, for the couple of years that you were a co-owner with the Sandfords. When you co-owned, Mr. Sandford was still alive?
2
Oh yes.
1
So he was still alive when you moved, when you left that business?
2
No, he passed before I left the state. Mrs. Sandford took his part. Then later on Dr. Sandford, his son did.
1
Jay did. Well I never knew that Jay Jr. was really involved in the business
2.
Oh yes. When his mother passed, then it passed on to the son.
1
Alright. I want to ask you about some of the social things that you did when you were in Oklahoma City during that time.
2
Since I’ve been here?
1
No, not since this time, but during that time. Were you the member of a fraternity?
2
Kappa Alpha Psi fraternity [laughs].
1
Give them their dues. A member of the Kappas? Okay…
2
As a matter of fact, I was inducted at Langston University. I was supposed to have been a charter member, but my name wasn’t on the charter. So I became the first (unintelligible).
1
Oh so you do to like start at the beginning?
2
Yeah
1
And did they have events in Oklahoma City? Did they have functions?
2
No, it was basically at Langston. They did have an alumni chapter and I joined the alumni chapter when I came back to Oklahoma.
1
Where were they meeting? Is it that building on 10th Street?
2
Is that 8th street or 10th street? 8th street.
1
But it’s where Old Roth’s funeral home used to be. Are they still meeting there?
2
Still meeting there. We paid for it.
1
You all owned the property.
2
As a matter of fact, I was implicated in getting that [interrupted by a phone ringing nearby which continues for a bit]. I worked on getting the---what happened, we decided we wouldn’t borrow the money, that we would pay cash for it. We had brothers who put in so much money to buy the whole and not have a mortgage for it. So we paid for it straight out.
1
Straight up, paid cash for it. Was Seedy Morgan —
2
Oh yeah he was (unintelligible) [both laugh]
1
Okay, so he was a member of that fraternity, as is his son I understand.
2
Seedy? He doesn’t have son does he?
1
Yes. Not the junior. I’m talking Seedy Sr. was a member when you were a member.
2
Oh yes. His father had passed when I got here but Seedy was the (unintelligible) from the time I came. Well I started a project here in my church with my fraternity called the “Ebony Awareness Bowl,” twenty-two years ago.
1
It’s called what now?
2
Ebony Awareness Bowl [The interviewer repeats the title a third time]. It’s been operating twenty-two years. We give scholarships to kids in the black histories (Transcriber’s Note: I’m assuming this is referring to the study of black history) [long pause. In the background an extended phone conversation can be heard. 28:11-28:38]. I’ll show it to you later; I thought it was in that drawer there. It’s based on trying to give our young people since integration—you don’t have a lot of history on black achievements. So what we wanted to do, we wanted to introduce to our young people the history so they can also appreciate what we contributed to the stream of history. We had maybe four to eight churches participating, five from each church and three who actually participated. The winners, they got so much money. And the two winners appeared on television every year during Black History Month, and those get a medal and little gifts.
1
Oh, the winners would appear in one of those little TV spots?
2
Yes, on a television competition. And they were in the competition.
1
Okay so what was the bowl consisted of? It was like a competitive activity?
2
Yes. I have another something [he moves to get something]. Did that interrupt anything?
1
No that’s alright; you go ahead [Long pause, and a door closes nearby. Talking to herself, or possibly the person taking the recording the interview says she going to blow up some pictures to try and get more detail. The door closes again and the interviewee returns].
2
We gave each participant a book like this that set out all the questions. They are to respond to the answers.
1
There’s Kevin and Charles D. McCauley. These are some notable names in Oklahoma City. Oh, so they study this and then there is a competition.
2
Yeah, competition of the participants and the two winners go to broadcasting and have the competition there.
1
So what churches compete?
2
Oh we have St. John, Tabernacle, Mt. Olive, 5th Street. There’s seven basically.
1
Seven of - it sounds like the larger churches.
2
And Mt. Pilgrim, a small church.
1
I know Mt. Pilgrim. So when did you begin this?
2
Twenty-two years ago.
1
Twenty-two years ago. And this is 2007, so it’s still a very strong scholarship effort. I wanted to ask you something about your personal feelings with regard to integration. I’ll tell you why I’m asking that. I remember that before integration we as a people had a very strong pride, especially within our education system where we strived for excellence. And with the onset of integration I’ve seen that level of excellence deteriorate in my opinion. What’s your opinion about it?
2
Integration, the whole process going through where we are now, there are gains and losses. First of all, we integrated with not a lot of preparation in our communities as of what would happen to our youngsters. And what we should do in the meantime when they are moved from our communities to help our students succeed? Some places tried to have little groups where the churches would call students in and to help them progress. That hasn’t been consistent.
1
The churches would come in and--
2
No, the kids would come to the church. And they had educators there and they worked with the kids, tutoring kids. And then also at the time we brought in the leaders of the black community to the schools. They spoke there, so kids got images of what they’re doing, but we don’t have exposure now. In Oklahoma City I don’t think many of our young people know much about the leaders in Oklahoma City even.
1
Black leadership.
2
Yes. And at that time, they could see their teachers at Sunday school, at this place, at that place, and all sorts of situations. But now the teachers don’t live, many times, in the community. But in order to participate in democracy you have to work towards the goals of the country or whatever you’re in. We know that we were not accepted very well when (unintelligible) to the other schools. But in order for democracy to progress, you have to include everybody to adjust the system and the freedom and so forth. That wasn’t consistent in all the schools we attended. I know there were some schools where I was, you’d find maybe the black students during lunch period would be here together and that’s youth; that’s normal actually. If you go from here—you have a group in the church going to New York City to a convention, what happens? All sit together.
1
Yeah, the New Yorkers sit together, Oklahoman, the Texans.
2
So it looks as though they’re segregating, but you don’t have too much in common. Your culture’s been different. Your experience has been different. And therefore, you don’t have too much to talk about. And classwork? You don’t talk about classwork very much.
1
That’s true.
2
And so, all those things. But, if we hadn’t had integration, we wouldn’t have Oprah Winfrey, we wouldn’t have Rice. I looked at persons earning over a hundred million dollars. There are at least twelve black persons in that category of a hundred people making over a hundred million dollars (Transcriber’s Note: It’s also possible he meant to say ‘in that category of people making over a hundred million dollars. I think this is referencing a cover article from a magazine article that was current when this interview was given back in 2007.). And who as at the top? Oprah, 250 million. “Jazz-Z.” I didn’t know anything about him.
1
Jay-Z.
2
That girl who plays Tennis, fourteen million.
1
Serena.
2
And you have Tiger Woods, a hundred-million. Now we wouldn’t have had that, you see.
1
Without integration, so it had to be. It had to happen. With some achievements made, with great strides made, and also with some expense to us as a people.
2
In Oklahoma City, in order for us to eat a good meal, where do we go? Outside the black community, don’t we.
1
Yes we do.
2
Now why couldn’t we have shopping center like with did some years ago on (unintelligible) prosper. So everyone has to make his contribution.
1
That’s true. And speaking of that shopping center, I remember once that the Urban League was going to purchase that grocery store and open up a neighborhood grocery store because that neighborhood hasn’t had a neighborhood grocery store for like 30 years or so. But something happened, and it never got off the ground. I’ve seen several businesses go in there to open it up and it not survive.
2
Well one thing: At that time, you had quite a number of principals, elementary and high school, in the black part of town and they were well respected. And then the businesspeople had a lot of influence. There is two different facets. The businesses had influence, and the teachers had respect. At that time, because there was the closeness, people felt that kids belonged to that community. I think Hillary said, ‘it takes a village.’ It still takes a village. With the technology and all, a lot of jobs that our young people used to have don’t appear anymore. And then with immigration, you have jobs that somehow some young people as races and feel they don’t want to do those things, and left other people to do them. There’s work to be done and we’re going to have to find out where we are in this country.
1
And what we have to do to make some more changes because change is ongoing. We can never stop.
2
We have to make our young people feel, too, that there’s dignity in work. In jobs, both races. Most of our emphasis is on what? Going to college. And you have a very small percentage of the population, particularly in the lower income, who go to college. But now work is dignified. I don’t care what it is. If you make a living at it, it’s worth doing it and doing it properly.
1
A lot of our children don’t feel that way. They don’t feel that whatever work you do is a dignified work. In the neighborhood where I live, I can come home in the afternoon, say I get off work at 3:00, and I see groups of young black men congregating at a particular house. And I’ll go down another block and I’ll see a group of black men congregating at a particular house. And I’ll go around the corner and I see this group of black men congregating at a particular house [the interview punctuates this with couple claps]. And they’re young men, who appear to be able-bodied, could be working somewhere [Transcriber’s Note: the tone here implies that these men are not working, but should be]. Could be some were doing some work, because young women of color are working, but the young men of color are not working.
2
Now why is that so?
1
I don’t understand it. It’s like they don’t think that there’s pride in doing certain types of jobs. The fast-food jobs, or counter help, or retail. There’s too many of them not doing something,
2
Well, I think they don’t have many role models. How many black businesspeople do you have that stand out in Oklahoma City?
1
We don’t. We have one, but we don’t have enough.
2
Take the ones on 23rd Street. Who owns the big grocery store [Transcriber’s Note: This could refer to the Buy For Less (renamed ‘Smart Saver’ in 2016) on 23rd and MLK, or the Buy for Less on 23rd and Penn (now Vasa Fitness center)]?
1
White.
2
Who owns where they sell all the wigs?
1
Asians. Who has the nails? Asians. Who has the men’s clothing? There’s a men’s clothing store right there off of 23rd. It’s owned by Ethiopians.
2
See when I came along there were black people doing those things on those places. And so I wanted to be like the Douglass of Oklahoma City, because Douglass had a lot of influence over Okmulgee. I wanted to be in business.
1
Now, who is Douglass?
2
Businessman in Okmulgee when I lived there.
1
You had a role model.
2
I was impressed with him and I wanted to because—at that time I first started teaching as a principal I got $900.00 a month for eight months. The white teachers got nine months. So we had to learn in eight months what the other kids learned in nine months. In addition to that, we had a split term when cotton was ready to pick. We had to close school until cotton was picked, then we go back again. We had two openings and two closings. What we were able to do with that was look at role models and check out somebody you’d like to be like.
1
And even given you didn’t go to school a full nine months. You would take those two times out to—
2
That was in rural areas. Okmulgee, they had a nine-month term. But in (unintelligible) county where the people lived in the country, they had a split term. Now just a personal experience when my dad was a teacher eight children, eight months’ salary and at that time they got less than seventy dollars a month. I had to pick cotton and do things like that.
1
You say your dad got less than—
2
When he first started, fifty dollars was a lot of money for him at that time.
1
Fifty dollars a month? Okay.
2
For eight months [she confirms]. So they couldn’t buy clothing. I went to a lot of rural schools and when I went to Okmulgee we dressed like the rural kids and didn’t have much. I learned one thing. They had a musical going to another place to sing and I didn’t have any clothes and I wore some very ordinary, cheap clothes. I was a part of the group. I was a tenor singer. And I realized—
1
You were part of the group and you didn’t have anything nice.
2
Nope. So, I realized one thing. Your appearance. When you look for a job, what’s the first thing they do?
1
Look at your appearance.
2
That’s the first statement you make, when you walk in the door. That learned that for me. The next thing, when I was here in Oklahoma City with the theater, Bijoux had seven theaters in seven parts of the state.
1
Who did?
2
Bijoux. They owned Aldridge, they had Aldridge theaters and we had one. [The interviewer asks him to clarify the name. He does]. I wanted first run pictures and they wouldn't run first runs. They got the cheaper pictures. So, I got some of the better pictures occasionally. They told me this (unintelligible) of the young man. Two boys went to the grocery store. One boy had a nickel on him; one had a dime. The boy with the nickel got one apple, but the boy with the dime got three apples. And I realized, there is—I do that in my marriage. We never had separate incomes. We had one income. It’s less work with one income than when I’m trying to hold the money here and over here. That taught me the lesson. I said, “That makes sense to me.”
1
Putting the moneys together enabled you to do more.
2
As a matter of fact, the reason I left Oklahoma—this is getting way off the subject.
1
No, go ahead.
2
I was at Luther. Well, we had a football team that year. It won the championship and had a banquet. The coach had certain dates that they were going to have the banquet and got one of the coaches from Langston to be the speaker. Well at the meantime they decided to have a theater in Luther. They called me and I said: “Now, the only this can survive is to have everyone attending your movie.’ But they moved into it with ‘whites only.’” It didn’t work, So they called me and asked if I would publicize for them. I said, “I can’t do that. I’m not in business. See I’m in education.” We had this banquet on a Tuesday, and they decided to let blacks come Tuesdays and Thursdays, on those two days. We had our theater banquet on a Tuesday [A phone rings nearby] They called me and said, “Mr. Richardson, you have a banquet on Tuesday.” I said yes.
They said. “Well that’s the day that blacks are supposed to go to the theater.” I said there was no connection between this and what I’m trying to do at the high school.
He said, “Well you move it.” And I went and told my wife and she said “Now, I’m getting fired next year.” I said, “I won’t do it next year. I won’t be here next year.” So when the time came to get the contracts they called.
“Mr. Richardson, can I get the contracts?” I went there and they said, “Well, all tickets were employed but you.”
I said, “what happened.” They said, “Remember what I told you.”
So we asked and I went and talked to the Board of Education president. He said, “The boys decided they wouldn’t tell you want happened, but you’ll find a better job.” Well, I went to Muskogee. There was a vacancy there. It had a lot of influence on my life. He said, “Now young man, what I do for you, at Luther you say, if you have a job I’d go back and quit it and go to some big university.” And so I did. I went to Columbia University for a year.
1
That’s big enough. [Someone laughs who isn’t the interviewer/interviewee laughing in the background]
2
I don’t know why he told me that.
1
He told you to leave Luther.
2
I was to quit that job and go to some big university. He said, “You won’t get a job here, but you’ll get something better.” After that happened, I got a job in Tatom, [unintelligible], with my wife working with me.
1
Tatom, which was an all-black town.
2
Yes. We took the job and met the faculty and all that. After, I thought about what the man told me. I said, “Honey, this is not my job.” She said, “Let’s go and resign.” We both went back and resigned that job and I went to New York City.
1
Always kind of heading towards something bigger and better. I want to ask you—it wasn’t real clear what was happening the night you were having the banquet. You were having the banquet on movie night for black people? [He confirms]. And what happened?
2
I don’t know how many went there but we had a pretty good group at our—
1
At the banquet.
2
But somehow the man who owned that theater committed suicide after that happened. I don’t know what happened, but he committed suicide.
1
Was he a black man?
2
A white man. When my kids heard about that in 1946, when they heard about it they came to my house. And they said, “You’re not going to be there?” and I said, “No” (unintelligible). And so I sat there. When they opened school the next morning they had prayer. They all walked out; all the kids walked out. I said, “Now this is an adult situation, not a student situation. If you’re doing this for me the thing to do is to go back to school.” So, they went back to school.
1
But they were trying to show their support for you [he confirms]. What was the situation that they were trying to--
2
Well I was fired.
1
Oh, they fired you after the banquet?
2
The next day was when I was fired.
1
The next day?
2
No, not the next day, I’m saying after I was fired they came to my house. They’d come to hear about it. Then the next day they went to school [Transcriber’s Note: the two speakers talk over each other for a bit here. That clearly heard word is ‘boycott’ which is the subject of what follows]. One thing, the white people thought that was unfair and they came to my house in Wynnewood to try and get me to make some statement. I said, well I didn’t want to disturb anything. But they when to the school board; they went to Oklahoma City, everywhere. And they had an audit. And where there had this nepotism where the bus drives and all that were hired by family and so on, this stopped all that. The grocery man had all the white schools, high schools buying groceries for their home economics programs and also for the lunch program. This stopped all that. I had seven buses and I had seven at the white school. They couldn’t buy gasoline because they were a member of the school board. So all that happened.
1
But they were really kind of keeping all that money in the family, so to speak. And what school district was that?
2
Luther, Oklahoma [both laugh].
1
Good ol’ Luther [She confirms that she has five minutes remaining]
2
That’s getting way off track. Now are you through with the theater now?
1
I do want to ask you this: Your family, you have children?
2
One son.
1
And is he in Oklahoma City? And was he educated in the Oklahoma City—
1
No, he was in school in Virginia.
2
Now we’ve been married forty years…
1
I want you to introduce this young lady to me.
2
And she was in a different field, of course.
1
Oh, in the educational system?
2
No.
3 (Female)
I grew up in [unintelligible] Muskogee County. And my people were farmers. And my grandfather and my father owned about 60 acres and leased a lot of land. They grew red potatoes. They leased so much land some people didn’t know whether that was their land or leased land. Except for about 60 acres of it, it was leased land. He became known as the “potato king.” You know how we how like to give somebody titles? Well, that’s what they called my grandfather, the potato king.
3
And what was his name? George Doakes was my grandfather. Kaiser Doakes was my father. And I went to school in Muskogee. Magnum training.
1
I remember hearing about that school.
3
They had a good football team.
1
And they played Douglas, didn’t they? A lot. [both laugh. There is a sound of something heavy being placed upon a table].
2
Here’s the kind of work I was doing. Here’s the house I built there. This one is my home. These are more homes I built. This is the kind of work I was doing that got the (unintelligible) started. [There’s a pause while all parties look over a collection of images.]
1
Now who did these drawings?
2
I did.
1
You did these drawings?
2
I paid for all this myself. I did all the work. So they named it the Arlington Conservation Program.
1
Oh the Arlington, yes. And that is still existing today.
2
Oh yes.
1
Well, it seems that we have actually used up all of our time, but I want you to know that we certainly consider it an honor to be sitting here talking with you today. You have a rich history in this state, even though you were kind of in and out of the state Oklahoma. But you have a rich history within this state. I think Tabernacle should be really grateful to have you as a role model for other young people and others who are going into the educational field. This is my last thing. Do you feel like you have done just about accomplished the things that you wanted to accomplish in your life?
2
I think so. I think that I have. As a matter of fact, being as old as I am, is an accomplishment [interviewer claps].
1
Yes, amen.
2
And I live in a county where I could express myself in many ways. That’s one thing I am proud of because our accounts are growing. It’s not like it was when I was working some years ago. The generation now is going to have a different outlook. Because as they know each other and blend the culture through looking at television and going places. One thing I think that we have missed out on - we should expose our young people to the culture. Over here we got this Omniplex [Transcriber’s Note: This is now known as the Science Museum Oklahoma] over here. We got other places of interest. Theater they have over there. People coming here from all kinds of situations. Exposure, now that’s what I did in Arlington back when I was principal of the black schools. Washington DC was part of educational system. And I had certain grades, they get to do certain things in Washington DC. Each teacher would go this business here and another would go someplace; they all didn’t go to the same place. When they opened the theater for blacks, we went there early and I talked to the man who had us. He came out and had the characters explain the role they were playing. Because kids aren’t used to that, going to see a theater. They don’t understand the levels in that certain thing, so they’d explain that to them. So, when they saw it, they could understand what they were seeing.
1
You’re exposing them to certain cultural levels.
2
We still had different places for kids to go. We went all the way from Canada down to Virginia in our field trips.
1
They gained a wealth of knowledge.
2
In Oklahoma City, Governor Nigh appointed me the first layperson to the board of examiner’s psychologists.
1
Psychology? Is that right? So that was one of your majors, psychology? So what were you doing on that board in a nutshell.
2
They had to come to us to get licensing. I know you have to go.
1
What I’m going to do, with your permission we’re going to take a picture. I want one of you alone, one of you together, and then one with the three of us. And then I want to take a picture of your plaques. That alright?
2
Okay.
1
Alright.