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Interviewee: Helen Arthur - HA 

Interviewer: ? (we know it’s Helen Arthur’s eldest daughter) 

 

?: Well today when I say it is an honor, a pleasure, and a joy to be interviewing this individual I am talking with today, I absolutely mean that with all my heart. And I want her to tell me her full name, including your maiden-name, and your birthdate, and where you were born. Go ahead. 

HA: My name is Helen Joe Hill Curtis-Arthur. Born May 13, 1927 in Altus, Oklahoma. 

?: And do you know me? 

HA: My daughter, my oldest and only daughter. 

[laughter] 

?: Hi Mom! 

HA: Hi, hello. 

?: I tell you what, I kinda waited a little while in taking the time to set aside and interview you because I wanted you to just be gathering those memories about growing up in the old fairgrounds. Well back then, I know they always called them “The Fairground.” But, you are the reason that I am sitting here today having this discussion, because that is where my first memories of starting out began. So I want you to tell me, as well as you can remember, about growing up in the hometown that you actually grew-up in. So we’ll start there. Where is that? 

HA: I grew up in Geary, Oklahoma and Geary is about 15 miles west of Oklahoma City. I then grew-up and went to the great school Douglass High School, the only school at that time. 

?: It was the only school for who? It was integrated? 

HA: No, the only school we could go to at the time. 

?: When you say “we” you mean who? 

HA: Black people. 

?: Okay, so the school was still during the times of separation and segregation in the state of Oklahoma and America really. So all the black people went to Douglass High School. And what elementary school? 

HA: It was the only school. 

?: Oh it was the only school? 

HA: That’s what I was saying, it was the only school located in the “North Town” they called it. They either called it “North Town” or “The Bottom.” 

?: “The Bottom” that's the term that I’ve heard used about Geary. And the year that you would have come out of high school, about how many, what was the average number of black people that were graduating from high school then. 

HA: From the time that they graduated? Oh from possibly 12, about 12 seniors, maybe 13. But in that day, they would call that a big class. 

?: That would have been a big class for Geary, Oklahoma of African Americans graduating high school. I have never asked you this before, what were your favorite classes when you were going to elementary and the time you spent in high school? 

HA: Home Economics, and Spelling, and Singing. 

?: Home economics, which included what, what were you learning? 

HA: Sewing, and cooking, how to sit, manners and we were told that when we begin to leave, lash out and go to our different places of work, that we would have to learn how to dress. We couldn’t dress any kind of way.  

?: So they prepared you for going out to a job interview? 

HA: They didn’t prepare us, but they told us that we would have to do that when we graduated. We were gonna work places like a secretary, then you would have to learn how to dress, to take an interview, or like that. I remember our home economics teacher told us when we got ready to go to those places, well she would take us the night before, in home economics, Mrs. Claig. 

?: Ms. Claig I remember that name. 

HA: Uh-huh, she would tell us when to grease your hair, when to roll it, and not to grease it on the day you’re gonna go. By that time it would be like I think she wanted it to be. She did not want it to be greasy looking. 

?: So it was about grooming, that whole part there that she taught you all. And about presenting your best self. 

HA: And sewing, we sewed. She taught us how to take enough inches off, ya know when you need a few more inches then when what you got, to make patterns, like material’s patterns, and make it do what you wanted it to do. Since you gonna be the master of this pattern, she wanted you to know how to adjust it to you. 

?: To your body- 

HA: That’s right, 

?: Or to whoever you was sewing it for. 

HA: Uh-hm. And not to waste material with length, that because people are so different in height and width so to speak. And to always take a measurement of yourself before you buy the pattern. Take a measurement of that pattern, so that you will know that accuracy, accuracy. So that saved us a lot of materials. When they would send it home to your parents, then your mother knows to buy two and a half yards that-a-way you don’t lose that half a yard. Money was tight, no one had money. But everybody managed to make do. 

?: Okay, I am kind of in awe here at the intricacy of what you remember about what she taught you about that pattern. And I really should not be so surprised about it because sewing was one of your handiworks. That was something that I remember you were always doing when I was a kid. And I remember that you made everything. I don’t even recall having a store-bought anything for absolute years.  

HA: You were the big girl. 

?: I was a big girl for you wasn’t I. 

HA: For me to go down and buy...you were the big girl even before you knew. Before we went to town to buy clothes. And the boys, I made their shirts, some pants.  

?: And where’d you get your fabric? Where’d you get your fabric from? Did you purchase? 

HA: Oh purchase it, that’s a time when they had a “T, G and Y” and that was my favorite place to go. 

?: It was called T, G and Y Five and Dime. And that’s where you would get all your materials. 

HA:  And of course there was always JCPenny’s. 

?: I’m talking about hard times when you used to have to cut those suits up. 

HA: Well yea, I would take you Daddy’s suits. 

?: That’s what I’m talking about. 

HA: I would take your Daddy’s duits and make suits for y'all. Cut his clothes up, make them clothes, cut my clothes, make clothes up. Or if I should come by something big, I was a little myself, I weighed 119. And every penny counted so I did that a lot, I made due a lot. If Easter or any holiday come up, the children are supposed to have new stuff. The boys wear shirts I made and I saw to it that you had a dress. Your little dress, and your little white socks. 

?: [Laughter] Too much fun wasn't it? Well I tell ya, I certainly relish those memories with all my heart and all my soul. I remember those times. I wanted to talk with more a little about Geary, OK and your going to school in Geary. You talked about Mrs. Claig being one of your teachers? 

HA: Yea, the student body then were, the principal was E.R Roper. He was the principal. And later, many years later, his brother Charlie came and he was teaching some, but when we went to Geary, E.R Roper was the principal. We had Mrs. Claig, Mr. Claig, his name was Raymond and her name was Norrie. And we had a Mrs. Hansberry, a Mrs. Granberry. 

?: And what classes did they teach? Do you remember what they taught? 

HA: Ms. Granberry did music. And the other teachers, I don’t, the other teachers did history. Because Ms. Claig did home economics. The cooking and sewing and all that.  

?: What was it? Ok so did grandmother teach you how to cook? Or did Ms. Claig teach you how to cook? Where did you learn... 

HA: We did, we did a little cooking in school. We did cooking school, but we never made meals. But we did cooking in school and Mama didn’t teach us very much because there were so many above me.  

?: How many were above you? 

HA: There were eight. Eight over me.  

?: How many were there below you? 

HA: About nine. 

?:It would have been... 

HA:[counting..] seven, sixteen, plus one girl didn’t grow up. My mother was the mother of eighteen children but she raised fifteen.  

?: But fifteen lived. And you were right there in the middle, I think you were under seven. Out of the fifteen you were number seven. 

HA: Yea, we did have a sister that died when she was seventeen because of a head injury when she was playing.  

?: Which one was that? Marcella? 

HA: Marcella. 

?: Marcella Hill. Who is buried in? Geary, Oklahoma Cemetery. Ok, I noticed on the family tree there was a Carl Hill. Who died in infancy. 

HA: That was Mama’s baby. Her last baby. 

?: Her last child.  

HA:I think next to Euphrates. Euphrates was the very last. Carl was before Euphrates. We were kinda little when all that happened.  

?: What’s the name of your brothers and sisters starting with all of them? Not whose living and whose not. Give me the names of your brothers and sisters, start at the top. Is that where you usually start? 

HA:Yes, my oldest sister was named Luticia. There’s a little story behind her. Her name was Luticia, but my mother was married seven years before she had any children. So naturally they thought that they wouldn’t have any. So she finally had Luticia, and then she was so long getting pregnant to have the next child - that was five years. So naturally she thought we was not going to have any more. And the next one was Edgar. 

?: Start at the top.  

HA: Edgar, Myrtle…….Luticia, Edgar, Myrtle, Larnie Fay, Lillian, Marcella, well I believe Bob was before Marcella, Robert, and then Marcella, Othella, Hal,[unintelligible], winding down to Mienda Fay and Euphrates. Now Elorie had a twin that died.  

?: Now that’s all 14.  

HA: Now Ellorie had a twin that died when she was only a month old. That was Elovie. And Ellorie was my baby sister.  

?: Now your older sister Luticia that you spoke of was born only seven years into their marriage, and Tish is how old today? 

HA:She is 93, September. 

?: And the baby girl is 73 I believe. That’s still amazing, truly amazing. I wanna talk with you about meeting my Daddy. 

HA: Hello. 

?: King David. The families were acquainted with each other? 

HA: Yes, the families were acquainted with each other.  

?:I want you to relax. 

HA:I don’t look relaxed? 

?: No, take your jacket off. I want you to relax with me. Yeah. 

HA: Well, David went to.. his name was King David… and he had a brother and they called him Jabo. His name was Dennis. That is where my baby, your baby brother Dennis comes from. Ok and... 

?:How did you meet Daddy? 

HA: He was just a little school boy running around there. 

?:Were you very young? Were you a teenager when you met Daddy? 

HA: Well then you didn’t meet guys, you just looked at them and that was it. So they there, you look at them and we didn’t have any relationships or any like conversations. Or like this good big deal. You do good to say hello and you are in school all day and you do good to feel like it’s alright to say it. Because you didn’t do nothing that was inappropriate or out of order. 

?: And your parents made sure of that. They were quite protective. 

HA: I came from a very sheltered, tight family. And I said I met. I think I was 16, and I can’t get mixed up on that [unintelligible] Ya know when they, when he wanted to go with me, so and I’m scared because we are going to have to go by Papa. So, for a few times in the summer we would all play together, [unintelligible] would all play together, and so when he asked me that I told him he would have to ask Papa. So when he asked him I did not want to be, I didn’t want to be… I wanted to be somewhere in Germany. 

?: You didn’t want to be in the room. 

HA:I didn’t want to be nowhere close because I didn’t want him to look at me if it was even the wrong thing for the boy to say. So then I talked to him oh I imagine possibly two years after Papa let it happen. 

?: Let what happen? 

HA: He let me, he let him talk to me. And he so embarrassed me cause he’s so hard on him and he’s just asking to talk. But he was so hard on him…..”If you ever do this, then I’m going to do that” and so and so.  

?: Threatening.  

HA: They even sit there looking and I thought “Oh my God” and I thought when he left that day he wouldn’t be back. So for three or four days, but she showed back up. 

?: Ok so you and Daddy got married, in Geary still? 

HA: We got married in Watonga, OK. 

?:Oh in Watonga. 

HA: But we were in Geary, but you know the county seat, and you go there to marry. And so when we got married, when he asked me to marry him, I said I don’t know how to cook. He said your Mama had a lot of children, a lot of girls. You don’t know how to cook? I said “no.” The big kids learned how to cook, we didn’t have to cook. And see they didn’t waste food so if you weren’t going to cook it, you weren’t going to be in the kitchen waste no food. So he says “well, I can tell you how.” He doesn’t ask me to marry him now he tells me how to cook. He said all you got to do is learn how to cook beans. All you need to know is how to cook beans. He said you wash ‘em three times and you drain the water off of ‘em, and you put all of the, you pick the rocks and dirt, and split peas, beans out of ‘em. And he said you put a piece of meat down on em and put them down on the fire and let them walk along slow. I was ready to marry then because I knew how to cook.  

?: Ok, Well hey there’s a start. 

HA: I thought I knew how to cook then. 

?:Ok so you guys got married in Watonga, and did you live in Geary at any time…? Where? 

HA: We lived in Geary, they call Southtown. 

?:Ok down in the Bottom. 

HA: We lived in Southtown, [unintelligible]. See I grew up in the Bottom. Northtown. Over by Zobich’s Gin. 

?: Gin as in a mill. A cotton mill? 

HA: yea they called it Zobichs. A cotton gin.  

?:Called it what? 

HA: Zobichs. That’s where I grew up. But when I married we moved with Aunt Betty in Southtown.   

?: Who is Aunt Betty? 

HA: Aunt Betty was David’s auntie. Annie May - Aunt Betty, that’s where Betty got her name, that’s why Annie May got her name. 

?: Ok so they must have been related to cousin Gertrude. Were they? 

HA: Yea. 

?: ah somewhere in there. Ok, so after living in Geary for a little while you moved to Oklahoma City. 

HA:We moved to Oklahoma City. 

?:At what point did Daddy go into the military? 

HA: Now he was out of the service.. 

?: Oh when he asked you to marry. 

HA: When he went he wasn’t old enough to fight or nothing but he had turned 18, so they drafted him then and so he went into the Army. That was before we married.  

?:Oh I see. 

HA: So he was out of the army. 

?: He went to Europe? Daddy, he fought in Germany I mean he went to Germany? Wasn’t he stationed? 

HA:He went to Germany, he went to Europe, and he went to another one I can’ think of it…. That was before we married  

?: Let’s fast forward ahead to Oklahoma City and I know once you told me once I was born you it was where in Oklahoma City? I, your first born child. 

HA: We moved to Oklahoma City and we were separated awhile. He went to Kansas for a while and when he came back I was in Oklahoma City. I lived at 3rd & Jordan with [unintelligible name], in the house with [unintelligible name]. And when David, when Davey came back he bought a home. 

?:Ok let's back up now. 3rd & Jordan was the duplex we lived in where Dearie was in the front and we were on the side. 

HA: Callen, the next block up. 

?: I remember that. Right on the corner there, the houses were on the corner. Was it a house? 

HA: It was a duplex too because we Aunt Eula May lived in there with Othella.  

?: And I remember at that location that was where Grandmother and Grandfather had come to visit us once when I was a little girl.  

HA: And you wanted Papa to go to jail because he hit ya and told to call the police. And I said he’ll hit the police, we won’t tell them. I said I can’t do that, you came in the house crying and you used to call me Dear, rather than calling me, and now I know why but I didn’t at the time. 

I said “what’s the matter with you?” And you said “Dear, Dear! Call the police!” And I said “Call the police, but why?” “Grandpa hit me!” I said “he did? Well we can't call the police because you know he’ll hit the police. We can’t call the police.” And that day it would have been a hell of a thing that the police would come, would have been a hell of a thing for him because he wouldn’t know how to handle that one. So I said you done something? Well what’d you do and of course you wouldn’t tell me. 

?: Is this the time I was almost electrocuted? 

HA: Yea it was that time but it wasn’t the incident. 

?:What do you remember about the incident? 

HA: All I know you Holler in the house and it was kinda like dusk dark. And all I know is I heard a holler that scared me to death and I run out the back door and well Papa was there and you had a hand on the pole. And that’s what was shocking you - the live wire. And it had rained.  

?: And it was a clothes line pole. 

HA: And the ground was wet, so you in some kind of way grounded that with you touching that pole with that live wire. And by that time me and him seen it at the same thing and he ran over to you knocked you out of the way. He had to break the current so he just snatched you away and saved your life I guess. 

?: I don’t know if I heard someone say this or if it something I truly remember, but what I was doing was following your baby brother. Uncle Freight, was swung on that clothesline. At that time clotheslines has a T-shaped bar that you threaded the lines through. And he ran through there and swung on that bar. That’s why I touched that bar because I was going to swing on the bar too. I don’t know how he avoided that maybe his feet never touched the water but I was following Uncle Freight, that’s what was happening. To my memory, I don’t know if I remember that or if someone told me that. But Granddaddy saved my life and that's why I’m here today. Well great OK. At that time the corner of 3rd and Callen was the Old Fairgrounds. What were you doing at that time, what was your occupation? 

HA: Well I had just got to Geary, Oklahoma City actually and I was there, when David came. And we, he bought a place out there on Peachtree Street and Garden Day addition and we moved from with her out there.  

?: Garden Day addition is way out there on the other side of Coltrane. Well Peach Tree is on the other side of North Coltrane. That was a black housing area of that day and time. And must have been in the early 50s, because again I have memories of living in that early house on Peach Tree Street and I remember that the red clay in the backyard and gopher holes. 

HA: See that was a new complex. Three bedrooms 

?: Three bedrooms, wow that was a step up for you wasn’t it.  

HA: And a garage.  

?: Yea those were new homes at that time. What was your occupation at that time? 

HA: Well no, I wasn’t working and it was possibly about, well a few years. The children were little, I didn’t know anything about nothing.  

?: Except cook beans and sew. Well, Hey! 

HA: Then, you couldn’t just leave your children, they were just too little. See David was worked at Tinker Field so I didn’t work.   

?: So he was making a good salary at that time and had to be in order to purchase a home.  

HA: And then then the youngest son, Dennis Latoris Curtis, when he was born he was really too small because he only weighed 3lbs. So he was in the hospital more for his first year than he was out. 

?: Now I want to talk about moving back to the fairgrounds area because that’s the strongest in my memory and the first location in that area I can remember is the 5th or 6th street somewhere close to Rhode Island and Nebraska or something like that. I can see Kelham in my mind and I think the next street East of Kelham was Rhode Island and then Nebraska and then Wisconsin.   

HA: You remember 6th and Kelham, it was one block East. That was Rhode Island.  

?: We were living there in that location and we had family reunions even at that time. I remember aunt Eloree sleeping on my bed and how she looked like a little girl. I couldn't imagine how my Auntie could sleep like a little girl, that was amazing to me. She was real small, real thin. That picture has always been in my mind. How old was I maybe 4? Perhaps 5, because after we moved from there we moved behind that grocery store.  

HA: Closer to Wisconsin.  

?: The one on my mind is on Nebraska.  

HA: That’s it.  

?: And the store is in the front and we lived in the back.  

HA: This is when the marriage didn’t work on Peach Tree and I moved back to the East side by the fairgrounds. When the man wanted his house or something I moved with the twins then. I don’t know which one it was... 

?: It was both of them, from my memory both of them were there. Incidents with both of them being there. Again I want to know what kind of work you were doing? 

HA: Othella worked at a hotel in Norman, and I knew nothing about work. I had three babies. 

?: Don’t break down on me now, it’s all over now.  

HA: David and I had separated since when we lived back on Peachtree. Othella was working and you could get on the bus and ride to Norman. 

?: Where’d you catch that bus? Can’t remember, that’s alright. Ok 

HA: I didn’t know how to do any kind of work and I went with her. So I worked with her to clean up the room. Make the bed.  

?: Hotel maid. 

HA: So I worked for a little while and pretty soon then I started working at the grocery store. I was a clerk at the grocery store. And I did that because you got to be close to the children. We lived in the same block where the store was so that allowed me to work a split shift. And you were a babysitter at a very young age. What we did in that day cannot be done now. 

?: Because I was approximately 6 years old. My oldest brother was 5 and Taurus was 4 and I was the babysitter and cook. You had taught me how to open a can of soup. As you say in today’s world that could never happen. 

HA: You can tell your children do not open the door for nobody and they wouldn't open it. I remember somebody came and knocked on the door and I was working at Hodges Grocery, and they were still knocking on the door… whatever the situation was.  

?: They were trying to get in the house.  

HA: And you came out the back door, come down to the store to tell me they were trying to break into the house. And here comes mother hen.  

?: They were planning with Edward and Taurus trying to get them to come out. Yea I remember that. 

HA: But that kind of thing cannot be done today. 

?: So we are going to call working as the clerk the... 

HA: Well because I never really worked in the hotel. I was trying to learn something because I had to feed the children. I started as I say, got a job at the grocery store and it made me able, I lived a little while with Ledora Porter, and three girls on third. 

?:I thought the Porters lived across the street from Jordan shoe shop, in that triplex we lived in. The Porters were on one side, the Dixons were on the other side, and we were in the back.  

HA: Not the Porters. Miss Ledora Porter lived on Thirds and Kelham. She was on third street, two doors off of, that's where she walks. She was the one that afforded me to be able to leave the children, because I would leave them with her and when school would get out her girls would be home and then I could work. And there was a babysitter down the street on 3rd and we would take you down there and one day David saw you in the yard.  

?: And this was after you and Daddy were separated? 

HA: Ya and after I had gotten a job.  

?: And he saw me in the yard one day.  

HA: Yea he saw you in the yard one day and he watched to see how you would get home. Miss Ledora’s children would pick you up when they got out of school and y’all stayed there until I got off of work. And when I got off of work, Miss Ledora had a room, it was one room, that I could rent like a duplex and we stayed over there. You were always under her supervision, not too much care for the girls just so they could get you up from the babysitter up to the house.  

?: Ok now, who were the people you worked for? 

HA: Hodge, and we called her Mama Rose and Daddy Hodge. And his full name was George, and he was Miss Leora Hodge, that was her father in law. He was her father in law. She ran the beauty school over on 4th. 

?: People actually got cosmetology training from her and got licensed. Tell me everything you remember about Hodge’s grocery store. 

HA: After a while I thought I owned the place. Because they kinda let me, I was pretty welcome and I did everything and it relieved her. Because at first Daddy Hodge’s health was beginning to fail and she was trying to keep him out of the store as much as she could and that gave me more time in the store. But she did a superb job in running the little neighborhood grocery store. Everything has to be ASAP, a banana had to be perfect, you couldn't buy a ripe fruit. She had fresh fruit and vegetables and fresh everything. She got her meat from Harry’s meat store.  

?: And they would make the deliveries where? 

HA:Out front. 

?: Because the back was closed in, it was their house. It was where she lived.  

HA:She had a pop machine in there and all kinds of meats. A freezer. So she ran a good little store. We could have a double cola. Bottle of Pop. 

?: I remember hanging around that store with you while you were at work. Now I’ll tell you an experience I had that even when I think about it is still amazing to me. I was sitting in the Hodge’s living room watching television watching a cowboy movie or whatever on and as I was watching that program it flashed in color. And I didn’t have anybody to tell that it flashed in color. That boggled my mind for years, for years! And back in that day which would have been the early 1950s they were experimenting with transmitting color through the wires or whatever. So yes I would have actually seen whatever I was watching flash in color, they couldn’t make it linger yet but they could make it flash in color. The sheer thought of that intrigued me for decades. I am going to stick on Hodges grocery store because it was a popular place. What was next door? 

HA: There was another little, we called her Ms. Rose. 

?: You worked for Mama Rose. 

HA: Mama Rose was R-O-S-A and Ms. Rose - that was Rudulph’s grandmother. Her name was Rosalie. She had a little concession in there where you could get cans, and pop, and potatoes chips, and nickel chips, and snow cones. Y’all got one about once a month and thought y’all was in heaven. 

?: That was on the East Side of Hodges, and on the West side was? 

HA: That was St. Mary's CME and when they rebuilt it just a little more closer to the front that was something very sad for Ms. Rosalie because she ran that little store and used pennies, and dimes to make the payments on the place and house and I don’t know how she was making payments but every first of the month she would send me downtown to make a payment. And this has happened more recently because you were big children then. Old enough for you to be alright for me to go downtown on the bus, because I went down on the bus and came back on the bus and I would make these payments for her and they would just take the money and give a receipt, but just take the money. So one day I asked Ms. Rosalie how much do you owe, what is your balance? She said I don’t know. See I had no conception for how much she owed and I just know she was taking money down to this place. She said well next time you go ask them for a balance, and when you get the receipt ask for the balance. I asked them for her balance they put [unintelligible] 

?: Oh my goodness, they were cheating her. 

HA: As long as I had carried that money down they would just have kept taking her money.  

?:Where was it, a bank? 

HA:Yea one of the offices downtown. [unintelligible] They put her out. And they kept taking her money  

?:And that was the last time she was in business too.  

HA: well you see they kinda broke up, because she went up on 10th street   

?: Maybe for a little while but well remember her and She and Rudolph moved up on Kelham down the street from the church. It was a new house for them, well it wasn’t new but it was a nice house they moved into. Well across the street from Hodges grocery store was, well yea we are still in that little hub there. That was just a small portion of the area I’m talking about and across the street from Hodges was Mr. Robinsons upholstery shop.  

HA: Well in the early years there it was a grocery store. And it was there will Ms. Hodges grocery story was there but I wasn’t working.  

?:Well you know what I have come to realize is that those stores could have been next door to each other and would have survived because some carried some things and some carried other things. But those businesses can be kind of in the same line of business and still survive. That's remarkable to me, but I guess we see that same thing today when wherever we see a CVS across the street is a Walgreens. So, I guess that economics still works.  

HA: Every first of the month I would go out to the Capital and [unintelligible] every month.  

?: Well you know what you were getting different kinds of training along the way and I’m stating this only because these are things I didn’t know. You do have a strong business sense about you with handling finances. A very strong sense about that - would have been great if you taught that to your daughter - but you personally have a very strong sense about handling your finances and I’ve seen it and I've seen it work and you still do it today but you were having her make payments. And you have sense enough to ask her “what do we owe here” and I would imagine you experience in Hodges you were receiving goods and you were signing off on the receipt of those goods when they came in, you were handling the cash register, you were closing down at the end of the day. Little did you realize you were gaining certain kinds of training that were going to be beneficial to you so many years down the road. You didn’t know you were just a little girl from Geary. [laughter] 

But across the street from Hodges was one of my favorite places in my memory. 

HA:The drugstore 

?: We called is Mr. Brooks’ Ice Cream Sundry. That’s the name I remember. But looking in the directory it was actually called Starlight Drugs. I never knew that was the official name of it but the people who owned it was Mr. and Mrs. Brooks and I remember them so well. He was a tall, slender, kind of a light brown complexion man. I can see this bony structure of his face, always in a white apron, starched white shirt, and starched white pants, and a bowtie. A black bowtie. And his wife, Mrs. Brooks was short. She was short in stature next to him and I can almost literally see her face in my mind.  

HA: Me too as we speak.  

?: Uh huh, and she used to wear - cafe workers used to wear some kind of uniform when they were serving food, and that was their uniform. It had the cuffed sleeves and the apron and everything was so- 

HA: starched 

?: - yes! It was always perfect. And I see that but Mr. Brooks Ice Cream Sundry - that’s where you would get you your ice cream cones, malts - not that we got that many of them. You could get your fountain drinks and that’s also where you would get your prescriptions filled and one of the things I learned in my research that different pockets of neighborhoods would have pharmacies. There was a pharmacy on the Northeast 4th and Kelham, there was a pharmacy down on Bath between 6th and 7th street. It was a Provos pharmacy. There was one up 6th street on the other side of Lottie, it was McCursens.  

HA: I remember that name 

?:But the little blocks of neighborhoods had their own service center and again the entrepreneurship of the people back in that day was powerful. They had the will to survive and provide and establish. They were supposed to have been the lower class section of the city, the working class people that lived in the fairgrounds. Those people were owning property, they were establishing businesses, they were running their own things. Now tell me what did you - after Hodges what did you do?  

HA: addy Hodge got pretty bad off and Mama Rose sent for Pauline. Pauline had a daughter Maxine.  

?:Ok well we don’t wanna do the whole tree.  

HA: Well they both came to stay there. By them staying there and her having to take care of them plus me - they had to pay them something plus me ya know - it got too hard and she couldn’t do that. So she talked Mama Rose into telling me that well I could stay if I wanted too but she couldn’t pay me. I couldn’t stay because I had to feed my babies. So I could not stay, so that's where - I left from that and started doing domestic. And I got to doing that with Sister Marden and Sister Preston at the church. [unintelligible discussion of Sister’s names]... from 6th and Kelham.  

I started going with scared to death.  

?: Now don’t break down on me you made it through. It was a new adventure. Hang with me.  

HA: But anyway that’s how I got into house cleaning. I went and learned under people like Sister, pastor's wife, yeah Sister Long, Sister Martin, Sister Preston, people like that. They take me out with them and then I would learn how to... 

?:Because there’s a true art housekeeping, to cleaning that house, not everyone can do it.  

HA: Well if you are going to clean someone’s house you need to act like you know what you’re doing and I need to know how to make a bed. I need to know what is expected of me. At home we didn’t, I didn’t, maybe the older children did take care of things. We didn’t have bathrooms and things at home. I remember MaryAnn would go uptown and clean somebody’s bathroom or do some sort of work and we were left maybe not that young but with somebody but Mama would have somebody go up and do Ms. Somebody's so and so she not going to send me and she got five other big girls.  

?: Did grandmother ever work? 

HA: She did, she worked for the doctor. 

?: I know, I'm not talking about her later in life, I’m talking about when you all were in Geary.  

HA: No she was having babies.  

?:She was busy having babies.  

HA: She didn’t work. Papa worked at WPA. The called it WPA 

?:They did a lot of different manual labor types of jobs for black people. African Americans did manual labor under the WPA. 

HA: Daddy said that one time men were digging a ditch down from our house down by the Zobie’s Gin. And they dug that ditch from one end of the block all the way past our house down to the end because they were going to run water down there. And everybody had a bunch of men digging a hole. They dig that trench and Papa said in his mind, he said that “Do you see that ditch being dug there? They will put 99 men in that whole to get that from here to there to get it done in so and so.” He said it won’t be long and one man will dig it. One man will dig it in just an hour or two. Will put 98 men out of a job.  

?:He was right about that.  

HA: Cause I don’t know what he’s talking about. But he was sure. He said it will put 98 men out of a job, one man will do it.  

?: Change is coming, even that early.  

Ok, so when you did your, the community that we lived in the fairgrounds area, what were some of the businesses you frequented? What were some of the businesses places that you went to? 

HA: What do you mean in the fairgrounds? 

?:Tip Top Beauty Shop? Rose water? 

HA: Well you know where Brother Brooks, Mr. Brooks that ran that drug store, well right next door to it was Tip Top Beauty Shop was in there. That’s where I got my hair done. Then it moved to another building... 

?:..across the block.. 

HA: But it was still in the fairgrounds. So we did that so another block below us right by Antioch church, there was another big grocery store down there. And that was our corner. By the time you went to one grocery store and another grocery store and back home you were walking.  

?: Yea I don’t remember seeing a car until well into my teenage years. I think you were getting ready to get married again but prior to then I don’t think... 

HA:I didn’t have a car until I married. I only bought a car, one car in my life that I paid for. It was that Lincoln Town car. And I had to do it because somebody wrecked my husband’s car and I had to go pick out after the crash. After the crash I bought a car and paid for it. My last two cars that I have now were given to me. I think every time I needed a car God came down and pulled me one. I’m not good at buying cars. I’m not very good because you don’t know who to trust and they could tell me anything if it’ll go it got gas.  

?:I want you to talk to me about some of the life lessons that you learned and coming up as a single parent? Growing up in the fairgrounds, a lot of the families around us had mothers and fathers and two parent families but a number of them were also single parent families just like you were. I remember that I know nothing of the struggle that had been raising children on your own and an unskilled young woman moving to the big city. And had to learn a way of living somewhere somehow. I’m beginning to put the pieces together of how you put together different life skills just by living by doing the best you knew how to do. When did you graduate high school? Did you graduate? 

HA: No, I quit school in the 11th grade. And Geary, OK I went to the GED for a while.  

?: Well Okay you made a big leap from Geary to the GED. Did you quit school to work in the fields? 

HA: Oh we did a lot of that to work in the fields but we did that every year. But when I just finally quit school that was more like finally being discouraged from the time you finally go to school, three weeks or a month, six weeks and you catch on to everything and the weather starts to get pretty so you get out of school. That was due to my age and getting discouraged from having to fall out of school in and out and that’s why that contributed more to that. But when you all grew up and got a little older and I came to the city and me and David were separated, that was one of the things I’m going to do nursing. So that lasted a little while... 

?: You were trying to go to LPN or something? 

HA: Yea Uh Huh. Yea I went to St. Anthony for a while, well okay. A woman, one of the girls that was there, had already been in school and she was telling me that when they first hire you they want you to work weekends. I got babies, I can’t work weekends. And then I can’t go to church. They can’t go to church on Sunday. So that wasn’t going to work out because when they do hire you they want you to work weekends. And you’re not going to be off every Thursday, it used to be two days off for however so and so like that.  

?:It was too unstable.  

HA:I couldn’t do that, so same way with after I married. I got teenagers in school and a husband that works. And you can’t do GED... 

?: So you decided after we were teens too - well is that when you started to go to class for GED? 

HA: That was during the time - well I was on 37th street then and it was after ‘65. And I was doing it because I thought you guys were larger and it would be a better thing if I did better than domestic work. Domestic work was like if you were going to babysit or something like that. And as I said that would not work out because the children would be in high school and someone had to be home and ya know. And then your husband come home and you're off in a school room - that was not going to work so I quit that. I could have gone to Tinker Field and I did take a test and I could have went, again and the hours messed you up because they would put you on graveyard shift and husband can’t sleep and you are trying to catch a ride to work. Then he said if they are going to put you on the graveyard shift then I’ll take care of ya.  

?:You keep talking about husband, who is husband? 

HA:Henry David Arthur 

?: Henry David Arthur. He was your second husband. 

HA: Yes he died the first day of January ‘92. 

?: 1992 I remember.  

HA: My how the time passes. Yes it does. I remember that I couldn’t give that and settled myself down to do domestic work and he said you can go then you can go if you want to go and I found that out a long time ago. Some of them pay you whether you go or not. But if you want to go there's no stipulation on government, your no government where you don’t go you adopt for a day or week or so and so. It wasn’t that kind of pay but you could still go do something. 

?: We are nearing the end of our interview and I have so many more things that I’d like to talk to you about which I will probably will over the years one of these days. But I want to talk to you, you were talking about that domestic work and trying to get a better position - get your GED, and get some better training, better working position. But that domestic work has served you well throughout the years had it not? 

HA: Oh yes, everybody I have worked for have been fine and wonderful people. I worked for a Mrs. Shannon. Johnny Shannon and AM Keller used to be the superintendent of the Wilson Packing Company. And Frank Keller, his son, was in professional baseball for many a year. And one night I was looking at the television and they were selling a baseball with his name on it and it went for $6-$8,000. Just that ball.  

?: Frank Keller baseball.  

HA: And then Peggy, and the Bagwells run the inner city violin studio. They still run it today. The daughter.  

?:What was the name of it? 

HA: Inter city 

?:No the owners - Mr. 

HA: Herbert Bagwell and Peggy Bagwell 

?: There are staples in the music world of Oklahoma City. All Oklahoma City classrooms who do their first year music students back when I was coming up got all their violins from Inter City. And today you are still working with? 

HA: I’m still working with the family uh huh with the grandchildren. 

?:We call it working, they have a fishing pond in the back. 

HA: I go fishing now, I put a load of clothes in the washing machine. I guess they come here to fish.  

?:And there was another couple…. What about the Birdwell men? Flo? 

HA: The Birdwells. I worked for them. Flo and Robert and they called him Bob. And she’s still living but he’s dead now.  

?: What did he do? 

HA: He worked at the hospital, some kind of... 

?: Some kind of administrator at the hospital. 

HA: And she was a voice, she taught voice.  

?:And she still sings today on Oklahoma stages, at universities. 

HA: Flo Birdwell, and I worked for them for many years. Had a little, had a son late in life, later than the other two. They are parents of three children. His name was Todd. Todd finished high school one week, went to a place to exercise, yeah the gym to do that and fell dead. He was only eighteen, he was just out of high school. 

?: Yea, again I remember you talking about that 

HA: That was so tragic for all of them. But the Lord blessed them to at least have him for that length of time. Now the son is a doctor and I think Robin is a nurse but he is a doctor, I know that. I think his name is Birdwell.  

?: I know you said that some of the things you enjoyed doing, the cooking, sewing, and singing, and so, you are one of those people they call on in church to do one of those old 100s. And I’m going to call on you to close this out. I know you love to sing.  

HA: You should have told me I would have gotten a song together.  

?: Yea well in a couple of seconds here I want you to start. Yea just do it, I’ll help ya.  

HA: All day and all night? 

?: Okay, hit it! 

HA: SINGING - All night and all day yeah, the angel keep watching over me, my Lord. And all night I'm a witness, and all day yes angel they keep watching over me. I haven’t been to heaven but I’m surely on my way, the angels keep watching over me my Lord. I just travel for Jesus every night and every day cause angels they keep watching over me. Mhmmmmm. All night I’m comforted, all day the angels they keep watching over me my Lord. All night and all day yes the angels keep watching over me. [Singing stops] 

?: THank you Mama, give me a hug - come on!